352
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 26 Feb 2024
352 points (97.6% liked)
politics
19144 readers
1306 users here now
Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!
Rules:
- Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.
Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.
Example:
- Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
- Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
- No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
- Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
- No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
That's all the rules!
Civic Links
• Congressional Awards Program
• Library of Congress Legislative Resources
• U.S. House of Representatives
Partnered Communities:
• News
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
The way I am going to go into this election is to vote 3rd party. If trump wins, he will either have a very underwhelming term and lose his fanbase or completely destroy the government and break the status quo. Assuming he goes the extreme route, the US will either rise up and competely reform the government or we had no hope of that ever happening in the first place. I'm tired of voting for the lesser evil.
Edit: Disliking this comment is cool and all, but I'd like to actually hear why people disagree. I am willing to change my mind if an adequate reason is provided. For anyone saying there will be domestic pain if Trump is elected, I am living in the US as well. This will also open the eyes of people who think politics are separate from their lives.
Edit2: Thanks for responding, I really appreciate the given perspectives. I am not a politics major, so I know there is always more I can learn.
Edit3: Thank you to those who provided legitimate reasoning and sources. It looks like the only viable option is to avoid a repeat of history, where the minority Nazi party ended up running Germany, by voting for Genocide Joe. God I hate this bs political system.
That's just voting for Trump with extra steps.
Nothing here has any bearing in reality or past precedence. It won't matter if Trump "wins" by one vote or twenty votes, his behavior will be exactly the same (and the people pulling his strings will enact their plans regardless.). He certainly acted like he had a "mandate" during his first term despite losing the popular vote, and he's not a complex force to understand- he will absolutely be worse the second time.
GTFO here with that accelerationist bullshit. You don't like Biden? Fine- you're free to. Hold your nose and vote for him anyway, because things are going to get a lot worse for a lot of people if you don't. The US system isn't set up to allow people to vote ideologically, so we have to vote strategically. The sooner American voters grow up and accept that fact, the sooner we can start working to actually fix the system.
no, it's not. only voting for trump is voting for trump.
That is demonstrably wrong under a "first past the post" system. You either vote for the candidate from the major party that is closest-aligned to your values, or your vote helps the candidate from the major party that is furthest aligned from you to win. It doesn't matter how much you hate it or want it to be wrong, it's a mathematical certainty. Like I already said, Americans don't get to vote ideologically precisely because the system doesn't allow it. If you think Donald Trump is the absolute worst candidate on the field, then any vote other than for (the presumed Democratic candidate) Biden is just helping Trump win.
this is election misinformation. a vote for Jill Stein cannot be counted as a vote for trump or Biden.
On paper it's a vote for Jill, but in effect it's a vote for the party you dislike more. Are you more of a practical person or more of a person concerned with technicalities?
there is no reason one excludes the other. and, in practice, if they count my vote for Biden or Trump, they are cheating.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the definition of a strawman fallacy. You're arguing against a point nobody made.
I'm not arguing against a point. I'm explaining how elections work.
Are you this annoying in person? I feel bad for people around you.
That is literally not how they will be counted. You're still not getting it. There would just be a practical effect of your vote working against your adjacent interests.
My interest is in voting against Democrats and Republicans.
This
is wrong, because this
isn't what I said.
the only way a vote can help a candidate win is if it is a vote for that candidate
I don't want Biden or Trump to win. I have an ideological opposition to voting for people I don't want to win.
How many times have the Democrats held power and done absolutely nothing with it? How long do we have to keep voting for the lesser evil? Why is the main platform the Democrats are running on that "Trump is evil, so vote for Biden"? Is the strongest candidate the Democrats can provide a genocidal old man?
I don't expect anything substantial to happen with Democrats. Change will not come from them.
I do know that Republicans under Trump will do everything they can to actively stop change from the places it can come from, which is the bottom-up.
Far too often.
Until you can get enough people in the government who want to change it. Get rid of the FPTP system then you can vote for whoever you want.
...what sane person needs more than that? We already know how bad Trump was the first time, and we know already what he and his handlers are planning for a second term. I have no idea why that's not sufficient motivation.
Again, the alternative is Donald Fucking Trump. Is Biden the "best" choice for America? If we're talking in terms of progress, probably not- but he's the best choice the money behind the Democratic Party is willing to support.
You have to keep voting for the lesser evil for another 40 years lol.
That’s all they have to offer. Until we get money out of politics both the dem and republican candidate will be sucking the dicks of their corporate donors.
Unless Biden does a 180 and changes his stance on a few issues I’m leaving president blank on my ballot. And I’m also voting against Biden in the primary for my state.
The DNC isn’t beholden to voters anyway, they already made that point a few election cycles ago.
If our country is so beholden to corporate donors that these are our two options, we are fucked anyways. We already live in an oligarchy.
This could change if we get rid of FPTP in favor of something like STV. Multiple viable parties means we can actually vote for people or parties closer to what we want.
It's just impractical to go against the top 2 parties without doing so.
I hate to break it to you, but there will be no post-Trump revolution. Should Trump be elected, the GOP has already released their plan for what the first year of his 2nd term would look like. Essentially, kiss any semblance of a democracy goodbye. A uprising against the US government by the people? Good luck. The US government and military has thermal imaging, predator drones, nukes, and weaponry you haven't even dreamt of. If Trump has that in his possession, it's game over. A vote for a 3rd party is a vote for the popular candidate, which in this case is Trump.
I wonder if "the lesser evil" will seem so bad when Trump has removed all rights from non-white, non-male people.
People in the military are US citizens as well. They have families in the US. Do you really think the majority of the military would be ok with killing tons of US citizens just so the president can hold onto power? As a vet, I can say the military is not as militaristic as they would like you to believe.
Let's see how long that lasts once Trump starts putting his yes men in positions of power within the military. You know... Like other countries have done.
Then they make a version of the SS to keep regular army units inline...
So, accelerationism. Which does not work.
Would you mind linking a video or article you would recommend on why accelerationism is a bad thing? I can look it up, but if you have any recommendations, it would make it a lot faster.
https://richardcoyne.com/2017/05/14/whats-wrong-with-accelerationism/
Some of the left wing parties of Weimar Germany thought that letting Hitler have power would inevitably collapse the system. It'd get so bad that the people would have to spark the revolution.
Obviously, it didn't work out that way. The Nazis left Germany in ruins, and what came out of the ashes was a split country. The western half became as neoliberal capitalist as the rest of western Europe (though with more of the sharp edges filled off compared to the United States today), and the eastern half fell under the USSR's own unique form of fascism.
To be clear: fascism is ultimately self defeating. How it fails has a range of possibilities, but it doesn't end in a clear path towards a great communist utopia.
Ah, read the article and a few others. I would say that my current views are close to Left-Wing Accelerationism. To my understanding, the issue with Accelerationism is the gamble it would be taking on the majority views of USA occupants? I.E. if the majority is right leaning we will most likely end up worse off for a while, while if the majority is left leaning, we will be in a much better place than we started. With the potential price being thousands of lives. Which is why the Left is pushing for Biden votes, so that risk is removed and we at least keep the status quo. Right?
A third party vote is a vote for whoever you hate most.
In first past the post voting, like we have today, you don't vote for a candidate. You vote against the candidate you hate the most. Only the two leading parties matter. This is a fact, not an opinion. Evidence in the link below.
So if you really hate Biden the most, and you vote third party, you're effectively handing Biden a vote.
Here's a short cute video that helped me wrap my brain around it. https://youtu.be/s7tWHJfhiyo?si=lK4IKv2MF4uXI6UI
Thank you, very informative!
I really, really, appreciate seeing someone not dig their heels in at the sight of downvotes and actually continuing the conversation to learn about the other perspective.
Kudos to you, and thank you for reminding me why I hate Reddit and other social media where opinions are unchangeable and there is no grey between black and white.
I hear you brother, doing the same.
They are just going to say the same talking points they say every election. Not voting for the dem is the same as voting for trump. Which is not true. If Biden cared about your vote he would change his policy stances.