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[ElderCactus] There were worse outcomes
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 06 Mar 2024
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Idk, I think he was crucified because he was a political activist that threatened the power of the state and forced people to question the authority of said power, just like the Romans crucified all political activists that were critical of the Roman Empire.
Maybe he was killed because an acorn dropped on some chariot. You never know.
Pilate did seem to be pressured by the Jews into crucifying Jesus. Even with the Barrabas incident where they freed a literal murderer to still have Jesus killed.
I took you seriously until you tried to propose that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene, these "scholars" must be mental if they seriously think that.
Also worth mentioning Barabbas's first name was also Jesus (or Yeshua) which if it were made up, wouldn't make any sense why a criminal would be given the same name.
Was a common name. Even shows up in the talmud
Are you really trying to equate me stating historical fact to me trying to propagate anti semetism? Even though the Jews in the times of Jesus were completely different to the Jewish people nowadays? That's like claiming that the Japanese did war crimes in WWII is some form of racism towards the Japanese.
Then why do you keep following me about?
I'm not following you, you just keep appearing with your missionary work in the same places I happen to be. So I'm making the best out of it by having some fun. And by the way, jews killed jesus is a popular antisemitic trope.
It's people killed Jesus. Judaism was kinda like Christianity at the time. Nobody's emphasizing that it's the fault of Judaism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_deicide
By "nobody", I meant nobody in this thread.
How should I know? Also the dude I responded to is a christian fundamentalist - so I would not be so sure.
There are more of them?
Definitely a similarity there. Ideology is hell of a drug.
So, not that level of fundamentalist.
I had a longer conversation with that dude, just check his profile - he is really deep, like Jesus und Satan are real deep. So I would not be surprised if he peddeled the classic Jews killed Jesus trope. I'm still not sure he is not.
And it's complete bull. If the Jewish authorities wanted Jesus dead he would have been stoned to death - not crucified. The Romans only crucified people they wanted to crucify. This is not anti-Roman propaganda - it's anti-Jewish propaganda by the Catholic Church to camoflage the fact that it was their imperial progenitors who was responsible for Jesus' death.
Or he was crucified because he was gay (kisses the guy he put in charge of the group's money around that time, had a beloved disciple reclining on him when feeding same disciple he kisses dipped bread at his last meal before being turned in). That was a capital charge under Jewish law.
In fact, it's extremely sus that Peter is alleged in his own tradition to deny Jesus three times right around the time Jesus is going through ~3 trials, at least one of which Peter is acknowledged as going back to the guarded area where the trial was taking place to deny him in.
He could have also been killed for promoting atheist ideas at the time, given the earliest Christian 'heresy' was Simon Magus who after leaving the early church is talking about an "indivisible point" and later heretics and apocrypha have Jesus seeming to be quoting Lucretius's naturalism and atomism. This is the same century Rabbi Elazar allegedly said "why do we study the Torah? To know how to answer the Epicurean." So Jesus promoting Epicurean ideas might not have gone over very well (and might explain why Paul was so adamant Corinth ignore "other versions of Jesus" that they accepted saying things like "everything is permissible" or denying physical resurrection - very Epicurean statements).
Or it could have been the official story, though personally I don't really buy it. If he was a threat to Rome it's bizarre he gets such different treatment from the several other messianic upstarts in Josephus who are killed immediately without trial by Roman forces with their followers included. And why would the Sanhedrin be peeved about messianic claims when the other examples of messianic claimants were solely depicted as opposed by Rome?
But possibly gay Jesus teaching evolution and atomism while criticizing dynastic monarchy? Yeah, I can see that dude ending up dead pretty fast in that time and place by Sanhedrin demand and Roman hands.
I remember reading about how investigations into the translations of the Bible support the gay Jesus. (Disclaimer I'm not gay, so I have no affiliated interest in promoting gayness, I just find it historically interesting).
"Washing feet" was a actually a mistranslation of some kind of general "servicing" that had several meanings, including cock sucking or accepting being bottom. Jesus "washed a lot of feet", but one thing is certain: It didn't mean literally washing feet. That part was definitely made up according to the people who looked into it.
Anyway, it's been thousands of years and learning of how cultures and acceptance of certain things can change rapidly, I wouldn't be surprised.
Keep in mind that Romans were also at war with the Greek shortly before the alleged time of Jesus. We know that the ancient Greeks practiced gay sex not just casually, but even expectedly. The Romans did not. The empire had an expansion strategy that looked a lot like the Nazis Third Reich: Expansion by breeding.
Personally I find it likely that historical Jesus was killed for a whole lot of other reasons than for claiming to be the king of Jews or for betrayal of the state, and he sure as fuck did not die "for our sins".
Huh? The Romans were even more extreme with it. The Greeks would court young boys coming of age with a lengthy courting ritual that involved a lot of focus on consent - the Romans were straight up castrating prepubescent children to preserve their femininity.
In fact, it's probable that the "marriage is between a man and a woman" in the NT was an anachronistic reactionary response to gay marriage having become a legitimate Roman institution in the 60s CE following Nero marrying two men, first playing the role of the bride and then the role of the husband (the latter time with someone who had been castrated when prepubescent).
Even before the empire there were rules related to homosexual senators losing their voting rights if they were the bottom, and they weren't likely to create a rule for something that didn't happen.
So I'm not sure where you get the idea Rome didn't have homosexuality.
I'd really need to see a source for this claim, as it sounds extremely spurious. There's a lot of literature around Christianity that claims secret coded language use, but generally they are all quite ridiculous claims.
While 'feet' or 'thigh' as words sometimes have euphemistic meaning for genitals, I'm unaware of any idiomatic use of "washing feet" as reference to sex. You can see some related discussion about the OT usage of a similar phrasing/theory here.
Idk about gay Jesus. lol. But I love the idea of that as a possiblity!
Him being killed for heresy makes sense to me. That said, my understanding is all the gospels about Jesus were written long after his death. It's totally possible he was killed like all the rest and the majority of the narrative was written after and heavily romanticized. It was then updated, as needed, to advance different political goals.
I'd never heard anything about disagreements with Epicureans, or much about them in general. Any books/links you could recommend on the subject? I'm currently reading the Dark Side of Christian History by Ellerbe and it's great! The lengths the Church went to solidify its political power is kind of hard to comprehend. It's crazy how little most people know about something that's still so influential.
Perhaps that was the historical perspective, but that doesn't include Jesus definitely performing miracles either. In the perspective where he does do miracles, a.k.a. the Bible, at least according to Christianity.com (which sources itself inline to the bible) a ton of priests and people were angered by Jesus's claim of being the messiah and son of God. They then invented a bunch of insurrection charges and took to the local governor, who initially refused but went through when they basically threatened to get him fired by questioning his loyalty.
So, I guess I stand corrected that it was not the Romans but the existing religion.
Of fucking course the website of the religion dedicated to worshipping a dead Jewish carpenter is going to say he definitely performed miracles. Dude… we don’t have any actual proof of him doing so though, just attestations from people who either worshipped him or claims from people who stand to benefit from the story being true
I think you should reread what I said. In the very first sentence I doubt that what transpired in history was Jesus performing miracles.