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this post was submitted on 28 Mar 2024
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I disagree. The divide is not because we talk about "violence against women." Violence against women is a sadly vastly bigger problem rooted in eons of misogyny. That does NOT take a damn thing away from men and nbs who are abused.
Maybe the left can do more to capture the minds of young men, but how? Conservatism plays at people's base instincts, fear and ingrained culture. It's easier to avoid the cognitive dissonance of recognizing that hey, toxic masculinity does kinda suck. Or perhaps that the social construct of women in the home rearing kids is demeaning and repressive and has nothing to do with nature.
I think men have a lot of reflecting to do, and it's very hard to do that when it's uncomfortable and challenges you to think differently. Conservatism simply maintains the status quo which places men higher, and that's a lot more convenient than introspection.
All this isnt to say that men aren't being left behind when it comes to body positivity, mental health, etc. These are things that are vitally important for men too.
Also, I would avoid the Heard topic which is a beacon of misinformation and misogyny. I exclusively read negativity about Heard from news outlets and Reddit. It was like Depp was everyone's best friend as they suddenly rushed to his defense against "feminism". Blegh.
So the proportion isn't vastly bigger, only about 7%. Also men are much more likely to be the victims of violence generally.
And the proportion doesn't matter either. All victims of violence deserve help and empathy. Otherwise, the argument is that "minority victims don't matter". LGBTQ folks also deserve help and support tailored to their needs, despite being a relative minority.
I agree with you on this entirely
Good point, however there is more to this situation than the raw numbers. Women are a minority and simply face a different kind of oppression and violence. I mean think about women's health outcomes, anti-abortion legislation, etc. Plus, you can break those statistics down further. ~~By the time they're 17, 1/3 of women have experienced a rape or attempted rape, whereas the same is true for 1/4 of men.~~ 1/3rd of women rape victims experience it before age 17, whereas the same is true of 1/4 of male rape victims.
In reality, only 2.6% of men reported ever being raped, which even accounting for underreporting utterly pales in comparison to 18% of women.
Source: https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics
Regardless, just because one thing is maybe more prevalent than another doesn't mean the other isn't a problem. I do not mean to downplay violence in any form against anyone.
What I mean is focusing on violence against women isn't inherently an issue, and I don't think that's what is driving young men toward conservatism. We can focus on more than one thing at once. I think that conservatism empowers young men, elevates them. It is the path of least resistance for most because men-on-top is ingrained deeply in our society. I think that young men are gravitating to the most attractive worldview presented to them, no matter how selfish and regressive it is because it feels right.
EDIT: I got the stats wrong.
Are they? Last I checked, women were actually the majority across most of the world by a very slight edge, mostly because men die earlier since hard physical labour and wars disproportionately kill men.
Why bring it up then? What's the point?
If they face a different kind of violence, that would imply men face a different kind of violence, too, right? If they are different from each other, that means both sexes need special attention on issues disproportionately affecting them, don't they?
The problem is not "focusing on women's issues". The problem is "not focusing on men's issues".
Women are a social minority. Whites in South Africa who perpetuated the apartheid were the majority oppressing a minority, despite being vastly outnumbered. I am referring to sociological minorities, not statistical.
I edited my comment. The numbers are far more disparate than I initially misread. I only brought it up because we're getting into specifics and I had to do some research. Women are indeed more affected by sexual violence. What's more, over 90% of sexual violence is perpetrated by men.
Definitely.
This is fair, but it sounded to me like you were implying this was a zero sum game. We can do both.
My primary assertion is that conservatism (and figures like Tate) is attractive to young men because they reinforce what society has taught for their whole lives, and if not, then it's at least a power fantasy that places them in control, which is preferable to the alternative. Reality (which some refer to as "wokeism" or "leftism") is not as tantalizing. Realizing that you as a man have implicit biases, privilege, and toxicity embedded deep within you requires a level of introspection and empathy that most young people do not possess.
I struggle to see how "the left" can capture the minds of young men in the same way when taking an objective view of reality.
This is such a problematic statistic to bring up. It means nothing to the victims and their needs, or how should we help them. It also doesn't matter from a prevention point of view, since the vast majority of men are not rapists. It only serves to reframe the issue from "abusers against victims" to "men against women".
What is that alternative, then? That's the problem, I do not see anyone proposing an alternative role to men in society.
I dont think it is problematic in itself. I am merely pointing out that my previous statements about the disparities between men and women were correct.
The mentality is certainly "abusers vs victims," but we cannot bury our heads in the sand and ignore the context. I.e. we must recognize that most rapists are men. Most rape victims are women. Why this is the case is important to examine if we are to improve things.
Why do men need a "role" in society specifically? Is it the case that men simply feel aimless and this leads them to conservatism? To violence, even? I don't know. I don't think women go about feeling assured about their role in society which in turn makes them end up more liberal. Why would the inverse be true for men?
Again, this isn't to say we don't need support for young men or that they are never victimized. The only messages I can think of are: acknowledge and understand your privilege, act with empathy, emotions are important and should be discussed, etc. Way less sexy than shooting boar from a helicopter with a minigun or whatever it is men's role in society boils down to.
That's the point, it doesn't. But popular discourse pretends that it does in the inverse, that talking about abused men somehow weakens women's rights.
As the culture war goes, the right tells men they get to become either a head of a happy family with a loving wife and kids who give meaning to your blood sweat and tears in your hard work, or they tell you that you get to become a hedonistic macho guy using and abusing all that male privilege.
What does the left tell you? For women, they have the "successful single girlboss" trope to aspire to, or even the "hardworking single mom" thing. As a man who is supposed to catch on to the liberal side of the culture war, what is my role in society?
Even the term "toxic masculinity" sucks as a lot of people misunderstand it as "societal woes caused by men", using it as a cudgel telling men that they are the cause for whatever way society sucks.
Look, that's exactly the problem. It is only okay to help men as a byproduct of something that helps women. Just look at domestic violence again. Let's say that the rates at which men experience domestic violence as a victim is not underreported for various reasons. There are still men out there being victimized. Are there any shelters out there for men?
I didn't bring it up, the article did. What I came away with was that both sides sucked they both are abusers, but a lot of media either only covers one side or the other, depending on what they want to say. My point is that they brought up the case, and they took a side, and they took the side of an abuser. If they took the opposite side, that would still be taking the side of an abuser.
I was watching a video about the phenomenon of men getting more conservative - which is happening globally - and one of the men who is doing a lot of work on improving it said that men can take on roles of caretakers and househusbands because those are possible now.
To me, that rings a bit hollow because for decades women have been struggling to get out of those roles because they're not respected by society regardless of who does them. Saying that men now have the option to take them on doesn't feel like a solid argument.
They made a lot of interesting points and covered a lot of reasons why men and boys are falling behind, especially in education, but that part felt like he hadn't thought it the whole way through.