740
Pulling it off
(lemmy.world)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 05 Apr 2024
740 points (80.8% liked)
Memes
45746 readers
1754 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
Here is a good spot to pick an Instance. You can stay with .ee if you want, but I recommend picking a new instance that fits what you personally prefer! You can also check what instances are federated with which other instances. For example, .world isn't federated with Lemmygrad or Hexbear, but .ml is federated with all 3, so you may wish to change your instance accordingly.
Where do I see who is federated with who? Couldn't find it from that link. Would def prefer one that is federated with a broad scope of others
You can find it in the server list at the bottom of the website. Lemm.ee is pretty broad, as are most of the top instances.
Defederation isn't a bad thing. .world isn't federated with Hexbear and Lemmygrad because .world doesn't like Marxist-Leninists, for example, so it can help keep an audience curated. Lemmy.ml liked Marxist-Leninists, so it is federated with them.
That's just incorrect. I'm a Marxist and to just fine here. Communist does not equal tankie, which Hexbear is full of.
What separates a "tankie" from a Marxist-Leninist? Is it just vibes? I got called a tankie for recommending a "leftist" to read Marx, specifically Critique of the Gotha Programme. Said leftist thought that the biggest factor of Capitalism is the employee-employer relationship, which is of course ridiculous, as that would mean feudalism is Capitalist, or even Market Socialism.
Since I get to see a lot of hexbear posts and comments as a lemmy.ml account, I can genuinely say that the biggest distinction between hexbear and lemmy.world, besides the fact that hexbear is explicitly leftist, is that hexbear users love to combat liberals and liberalism, often dogpiling on anti-communist takes, which .world sees as disruptive.
From my experience Hexbear isn't as much full of tankies as it is full of anti-west people. Depending on who you end up interacting with you might not even call them explicitly leftist. I don't see supporting Russian invasion of Ukraine as leftist, but you can find people in Hexbear supporting just that.
Understanding hexbear is pretty simple.
Hexbear isn't simply anti-west, but anti-imperialism. As in, Lenin's definition. As extreme shorthand, Lenin defines Imperialism as the point at which Capital has concentrated to the point of near monopoly so as to impact the state's decisions, a merging of bank and industrial Capital, export of Capital (not commodities), formation of international monopolies, and territorial division amongst the greatest Capitalist monopolies.
Following this, Russia does not hold the same extreme economic power internationally that NATO countries do, so while hexbear condemns Putin as a bourgeois dictatoraship and seeks an immediate end to the conflict, they also believe NATO as an imperialist power cornered Russia into making a move, provoking it.
Hexbear is usually anti-west because the West absolutely fits Lenin's definitions.
That's pretty much it, if you are familiar with Lenin and agree that opposing the strongest Capitalist powers is a good thing, you'll agree with some part of hexbear.
It's also worth noting that hexbear isn't simply Putin supporting, they would rather the Communist party rule Russia, but if they have to pick sides, they would rather support the anti-Imperialist side (again, Lenin's definitions) than the Imperialist side (yet again, Lenin's definitions).
That's really all there is to it.
Marxism predicted a temporary dictatorship of the proletariat during the proletariat revolution. Marxist-Leninism took the temporary dictatorship prediction and ran with it, establishing a permanent dictatorship of the communist party, which Lenin called the Vanguard Party.
There are Marxists that disagree with the idea of the Leninists' Vanguard Party and authoritarianism. Tankies, on the other hand, are the communists that support this idea of a permanent communist dictatorship and its authoritarianism, at least in a nutshell.
So I would say that most ML Commies are technically 'tankies', but not all commies are ML. A lot of commies are just M.
I'm aware of the allegations, I just think people who believe Marxism-Leninism is in contrast to Marxism are "anarchist-washing" Marx's actual writings and beliefs. See Critique of the Gotha Programme.
What separates Lenin from Marxism is the idea of a vanguard party, the concept of Democraric Centralism, and Lenin's analysis of Imperialism, not how long the dictatorship of the Proletariat might last. Additionally, Marxism-Leninism wants the DoP to last until there is no more Bourgeoisie, same as traditional Marxism, it doesn't mean that after that happens there is no government, just no means by which one class oppresses the other. Same as Marxism.
Marx, after all, refers to any Capitalist state as a Bourgeois dictatorship, regardless of the presence of Liberal Democracy. The dictatorship of the Proletariat just refers to the presence of a worker-state, a state democratically run by the workers, and that's what Marxism-Leninism proposes.
Basically, my point is that people that oppose Marxism-Leninism should usually also oppose Marxism itself, because they aren't really different. It's completely fine to be an Anarchist who accepts the analysis of Capitalism done by Marx and Lenin but rejects the statist nature of Marxism, but I do think that the idea of Lenin somehow going against Marxism is "anarchist-washing" of the statist nature of Marx himself.
Typically whether they support authoritarianism or not.
Is authoritarianism just vibes? What makes Marx not authoritarian?
https://www.britannica.com/topic/authoritarianism
I'm aware of the dictionary definition, I want to know why you think Marxism is fine while Marxism-Leninism isn't. How is Marxism-Leninism authoritarian, when Marxism isn't? Have you read Critique of the Gotha Programme? You're "anarchist-washing" Marx, who advocated for a democratically run Worker-State, just like Marxism-Leninism does. All Lenin adds is a critique of Imperialism, the concept of Democratic Centralism (which is already the de-facto form of democratic decision making in the world), and the idea of a Vanguard Party being necessary.
That's why I'm saying you're purely operating off vibes. It's 100% okay to be an Anarchist that appreciates Marx's critique of Capitalism, and even Lenin's critique of Imperialism, while instead preferring Anarchism in action, or even Reformist Socialism, but don't pretend Marx was some hero of anarchism or something.
I never made any characterization of Marx-Leninism. I think you're wildly misattributing that philosophy to the hex-bear crowd.
On what grounds? They read Marx and Lenin, discuss their works, and personally claim to be Marxist-Leninists. If you aren't referring to Marxism-Leninism, then what are you referring to?
To be honest, I don't really think you're engaging in good faith.
I think being demonstrably pro-Russian anti-Ukraine is one such example. I think they coddled the Chinese government too much. The allies they have do not align with true communist values.
I am engaging in good faith, you've been disengaging and dodging questions, which is frustrating.
I understand that you don't have much exposure to hexbear with a .world account, but I see them a lot. It isn't sufficient to say "pro-russia" or "anti-ukraine," it's more accurate to say that they oppose NATO as the largest coalition of Imperialist states in the world, presently, following Lenin's analysis of Imperialism.
Same with China, China is currently the largest actually existing Socialist state, so they have critical support for what the CPC does. This is with the notion that people are driven by Material Conditions and Material Reality with respect to Mode of Production drives history.
Hexbear is largely Marxist-Leninist, and you'll find that Marxist-Leninists largely agree with Hexbear, regardless of where you find them.
That's why I am asking why you claim Hexbear is authoritarian, but Marx isn't. Hexbear doesn't simply support authoritarianism, but opposes Imperialist countries along Lenin's analysis. Marx additionally wasn't a Utopian, but a Scientific Socialist.
I have ample experience with these people. That's why I created an account here. They bullied me with mod supported targeted harassment because I wasn't communist enough or something.
Do you have an example?
Sure. I reported a death threat, the mods posted the report to dunktank, and the mobs came after me.
The account has, understandably, been deleted. Weeks of harassment.
I'm sorry to hear that. I still don't see where that makes Hexbear authoritarian, though.
I thought you asked for examples of harassment...
No, their pro CCP and Kremlin takes are enough for the latter.
Particularly that they are pro Ukranian invasion. I could even buy an anti US imperialism stance. but they are instead pro Russian imperialism.
That was in response to me telling you how they operate and aren't simply "authoritarian supporters", to which you said you have "ample experience."
Support for the CPC is still Marxist, and opposing NATO is also Marxist. Hexbear does not support the Kremlin from what I have seen. You say you're a Marxist but disagree with this, which is why I am asking what you think Marx wanted that Hexbear doesn't, or vice-versa.
Marx didint even believe in an established government. Much less one that invades a soveriegn nation such as Ukraine. Are you implying imperialism is compatible with the views of Marx?
There's a differnece in being anti NATO and pro Ukraine invasion.
Marx absolutely believed in an established government, read Critique of the Gotha Programme. Marx advocated for a worker-state until class was abolished, then the instruments used to opress one class by another would be abolished. The government would remain. Read Engels' On Authority for more information. You're "anarchist-washing" Marx.
Marx wouldn't support the invasion of Ukraine, and neither does Hexbear. Hexbear supports a ceasefire.
Im sorry, but your facts are wrong man, namely that hexbear does not support the invasion.
At this point Im choosing to block you. Ive already gotten away from the tankies once. No interested in trying to argue with one again.
Do you have any proof? What have I been wrong about? Why am I a tankie for suggesting that you read Marx?
It’s not that .world doesn’t like Marxist-Leninists, it’s that Hexbear likes to doglike over everything and well you can tell a lot about Lemmygrad by its name.