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EU must cut ties with Israel to prevent Gaza genocide - UN rapporteur
(www.euronews.com)
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this post was submitted on 11 Apr 2024
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That's true, but you can't destroy them with force. The only way to destroy Hamas is by destroying the reason they exist and by ending the suffering for the Palestinians. Violence produces more violence. Make Gaza a state, support it, so that the people living there can have a good live and Hams becomes less of a Problem.
In principle I agree with you, in practice what you are suggesting is just a nice dream.
I said it is a dream for a number of hard facts:
It seems to me that, at least partially, the blame could be splitted....
And then ? Are you that naive to think that if Gaza will become a state, Hamas will change ? They already show that they don't care even about their own civilians, what make you think that it will ever change ? It is from 2005 that they can run their "state" and what are the results ?
BTW, ending the suffering of the innocent palestinian civilians is easy: just ask Egypt to open their border and let the refugees in (like Poland did with the Ukranian for example) and help them (EU could also help Egypt to take care of them eventually). This way who remain in Gaza is fair game and the innocent civilians are safe. Oh yes, Egypt do not want Palestinians, like every other muslim country, so maybe they know what the facts are.
Or maybe people will discover the inconvenient truth that it is in the open: that Hamas want their civilians to be killed by IDF so they can cry that IDF is bad and need to be stopped. (they already said it) After all it is the perfect strategy for Hamas: let us to kill all the innocent civilians we want and then hide behind ours when the enemy, inevitably, hit back. Do you think it is a good idea to allow this ?
You realize that you just openly advocated for ethnic cleansing?
You're an awful fucking human being. Yes all those children left behind are "fair game" if Egypt opens the border. But they won't open the border, so they shouldn't be fair game right? Because there's still people there. You want to act like because Egypt doesn't want them that makes them all fucking worthy to die
Now stating facts made me an awful human... nice. Or maybe the fact that I belive that a person (or a population) should be held responsible for their choices... what an awful thing to say in these times...
The question is: why the children should left behind if Egypt opens the border ? Are their parents so awful to left their children behind as they are fleeing ? Why a mother should left her children behind when she has an oppotunity to save herself and her children ?
No, they are not fair game, as every civilian is not fair game, in a war. I only noted that there is a possible solution to minimize the civilian deaths that could be implemented without Israel's intervention. Why EU don't pursue this option ?
But the problem here is that you people think that it is ok for Hamas to explicity target civilians while is wrong when Israel kill a civilian as a collateral damage. A collateral damage that is what Hamas wants as they openly stated. Read something about Mosab Hassan Yousef if you don't belive me.
No, they are not worth to die but in the end the only option for them to be safe is to collaborate with Israel in eradicating Hamas and become an affidable interlocutor for peace talks.
I could understand why Israel has some qualms to make an accord with someone that has in its charter the objective to destroy them.
You didn‘t just „state facts“. You stated facts and then advocated for ethnic cleansing.
Its astounding to see, how fast Israel-supporters go from „its awful that these innocent people are dying because of Hamas“ to „all Palestinians are one evil entity seeking nothing but to bath in the blood of raped women“ in one comment if it fits the narrative they are trying to push.
Yes. Saying millions of people should be murdered, because of the actions of a few tenthousands is a awful thing to say. It was awful in the past and luckily still is awful today.
Separation in the chaos, child could be injured, child is too weak to walk and mother to starved to take it with her. There are plenty of reasons, why a mother and a child can be separated in a warzone. That you refuse to acknowledge these factors doesn‘t speak for your empathie.
I am glad, that you acknowledge this.
Could be a solution to save lifes if we manage to feed all those people and provide medical help, yes. But it also blames a neutral third party instead of the party, that causes the suffering by blocking aid and bombing areas, they declared to be safe for civilians.
Because Egypt already has taken in a lot of Palestinians and demanding they take even more wouldn‘t be smart on a diplomatic level.
Literally nobody here, besides you, thinks its okay to target civilians.
So you are trying to tell me, that Israel didn‘t kill a single civilian intentionally?
Its pretty dumb of Israel to fulfill the wish of Hamas, don‘t you think? Again: Nobody here is defending Hamas. You are the only one arguing in favor of killing civilians.
And how is this supposed to happen, if Israel doesn‘t even recognize Palestine? Do you expect the Palestinians to sign a petition asking nicely to not murder them?
I could understand why Palestinians may have some qualms to make an accord with someone that is murdering them.
And again: Palestinians =/= Hamas, Legitimate Representation of Palestinians =/= Hamas, starving Child in Gaza =/= Hamas
What IDF is doing is not remotely a ethnic cleansing or a genocide, that's a genocide. So maybe we could start to call the things with their name.
The "few ten thousands" were elected from the millions of people. Is it awful that this happen ? Of course. Is it unexpected ? No.
Israel has no way to block aids coming through Egypt.
As far as I know, the border between Egypt and Gaza is closed.
Well, I have not yet read anything that condemn what Hamas did on October the 7th
Yes, they are not killing them intentionally, they are collateral damages (awful but sad reality). If the IDF was trying to intentionally kill civilians, let's say that from a military point of view they are a joke.
Maybe, but it is also pretty dumb to not fulfill the with of Hamas and let them kill Israel civilian unpunished.
I am the one arguing that if the civilian make a choice then they pay the price.
Well maybe, just maybe, if they try to be a good neighbor, Israel could begin to consider it. Obviously it is not something that could happen in a day, but it is something that can happen only if both side collaborate.
No, I expect that the civilians do not vote for Hamas and help IDF to find the fighters to eradicate only Hamas fighters.
I am not aware that the Israel constitution has the extermination of Gaza in it, but it is true the opposite.
Partially. Palestinian elected Hamas, so as far as I am concerned Hamas is the Legitimate Representation of Palestinians. All the rest is a consequence
It is.
Quote:
I never said, that its a genocide.
I do.
Yes, Hamas got 44,45% of the votes in 2006. But 43,5% of Palestinians in Gaza weren‘t even alive then. Most people, that live in Gaza today, didn‘t vote Hamas in 2006.
I agree. Both the IDF and Hamas acted very predictable.
Why is that important, when we discuss, weather killing civilians is justified? I condemn the moral and legal crimes of Hamas. I condemn the rapes. I condemn the murder. I condemn what happened to the corpses afterwards. I condemn the attack on the another state. Are you happy now?
This was a collateral damage?
Israel can‘t risk getting that much bad publicity. And why would they want to kill every Palestinian? That would be a waste of bullets in the minds of many Israeli politians. They want uninhabited land to settle on. Most of these far right politians don‘t care, what happens with the Palestinians.
I think it is possible to fight Hamas without committing war crimes.
Already answered that.
What is the Palestinian civilian supposed to do to be a good neighbor? And why has Israel a right to determine if Palestine is allowed to be a state.
Yes. And Israel and Hamas are doing their best to prevent this collaboration.
Call me, when you find a time machine.
I am 100% sure there are Palestinians, that do that. There is collaboration in every war. But why would they do that? Why would they help a force, that tries to murder them against a force, that „only“ oppresses them?
I knew you would come up with that. I never said that. Stop arguing against things you make up. I was saying, that the IDF is currently murdering them, not that it is written in their constitution.
The charter of Hamas is neither the constitution of Gaza, nor Palestine. Saying that is like saying the election program of the democratic party is the constitution of the US, because Joe Biden is the president.
And I disagree. Is it now acceptable to commit war crimes?
This is how a democracy work. Who get more votes is mandated to run the government.
Now, I could discuss that the 43.5% who do not voted for Hamas (and I am making the assumption that they voted for someone who really want peace) are paying a price for someone else decision but in the end, even if it sad, the voice of the population decided to follow a certain path
Military speaking, yes.
I am not the one saying it. I am the one saying that if they want to kill the civilian to have free land, then they are failing to do so and they look like a joke.
How ? Some example ?
For example, the 43.5% that do not voted Hamas could help the IDF to find the Hamas fighter and weapon storages.
Maybe becasue the one that "only" oppresses them are the ones that are using them as human shields...
And I am saying that if you want to stop the murdering you must have both side to agree, in this situation. It is not like that if IDF stops then Hamas will stop too.
Fine. Let say that to have peace talks you need to have both side with a compatible political program. I don't see a peaceful solution if one side has a political program to destroy the other.
No, but at the same time you cannot cry if your actions make you a target of a war crime. It is awful and not acceptable but this do not absolves you from your responsabilities.
This year is 2024 and since 2006 there were no elections in Palastine since 18 years. Obviously some in Gaza agree with Hamas, but it was unpopulare before the war started, due to the already bad situation in Gaza.
Or Israel actually provides zones were civilans can take shelter and recieve the absolute basics necessary for life, such as food a clean drinking water. It is not like Israel has a lot of land right next to the Gaza strip, where that could be done. Obviously not perfect, but they then could return to the Gaza strip. Even just letting aid into the Gaza strip would be easy for Israel to do. Egypt actually does that.
The has not been the case in the last couple decades. Palestininians have been willing to accept Israel in the internationally reconginsed borders, but Israel is unwilling to remove its illegal settlements on the West Bank. Even the US say so. Obviously that would not stop all terrorism and Palestinians would not love Israel, but it is possible and the only way the conflict might end.
Obviously that is part of it, but Hamas is not blockading aid coming to the Gaza strip and again there are ways around this.