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this post was submitted on 04 May 2024
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Democrats are speaking out though?
And getting called trump supporting russians when we do.
I believe they’re talking about Democrat electors, like Schumer and Bernie. No one here is against speaking out or protesting. The topic is voting. If people abstain, Trump will win. His unwavering base will make sure of that.
Also, you said you’re not a democrat. Which is it? Or do you just manipulate your stance to fit the narrative you’re selling?
Oh cool. Where did I say that?
Is it in the same chunk of your imagination where you assume I support trump because I don't love genocide like you do?
I thought you had written that you left the party years ago. My mistake. Also, accusing people of loving genocide is despicable and further discrediting to you. Of course I’m passionately against killing of any kind, especially when targeting a specific group.
I’m not defending Biden’s support of Israel. This post is about voting, and yes, I’m absolutely reluctantly voting for him to keep Trump from a second term. You are either completely ignorant to the implications of your comments or you are actively trying to get Trump into office.
You didn't care when you were accusing me of supporting trump and by extension genocide. So deal with it.
But are happy to scream false accusations at anyone who isn't willing to pretend that Biden's support for genocide is acceptable.
Really? Because you acted like I was a single issue voter for just pointing out that single issue voters exist and that Biden needs to adapt.
Of course adaptation might involve dropping support for genocide, so I can see why that would make you angry.
I very much doubt that there's any reluctance involved, unless he drops his support for genocide.
I'm trying to get Democrats to stop being the Other Genocide Party. Which bothers you.
I’m not angry. In fact, I’m quite well adjusted. You should consider paying more attention to your well being and less attention to opportunities to attack and misrepresent others online.
Yeah, they're speaking out against the protests. Biden even got in on it with his short speech recently finger wagging the student protests, in case you were wondering how much democrats care about acting against genocide.
Would you rather he ask about shooting the protestors?
Everyone knows trump is worse. The answer to hitler is not hitler-lite.
What is the answer? People are commenting like they can just abstain and everything will work out. I’m commenting as an anti-Trump voter. Provide a suggestion that isn’t whining about bad choices and I’ll listen.
The answer is for people who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries to apologize for putting us in this position. Otherwise they're just gonna do it again in 2028.
How would an apology for voting change anything in the next election? You’ve legitimately lost me.
It would demonstrate some self awareness from the people who created this situation. If they plan on behaving differently in the next primaries then it's worth it to hold my nose and vote for Biden again in the hopes of having someone substantially better in 2028.
The fact that there is no apology means whoever is elected in the 2028 primaries won't be any better. It's probably going to be HRC.
Are you talking about the DNC providing limited options in the primary, or those who voted in the primary? You can vote in any primary just by changing your registration. I’ve done it several times. I have no party loyalty. I’m loyal to my ideals and will vote in any primary that looks to benefit my ideals best.
I'm not sure what your point is here.
My point is I don't think the 2028 primaries are going to produce a better candidate so I'm not motivated to hold my nose any longer.
What is holding your nose? Abstaining from voting? You’re not making any clear points.
The answer is to continue to pressure democrats, known as "the good party", to actually do good things they claim they want to do but refuse to actually do.
I completely agree. I’m only commenting against the inaccuracy of protesting at the polls. The topic of this thread and post is supporting Biden in the election, not in his support of Israel.
He called out elements of the student protest movement, not the movement as a whole.
Maybe if we policed the most unhelpful and destructive elements of the movement for ourselves, we wouldn't be in this situation.
He talked about these elements as if they were the entirety of the movement. It doesn't matter how much you police the movement, any jackass can make the movement look bad with the help of biden and the media pretending like they represent the movement.
The Columbia divestment spokesperson said they had no involvement with the group which took over Hamlin Hall, but stood in solidarity with them.
When the movement as a whole stands in solidarity with those who are weakening the movement, maybe Biden has a point.
Biden is arming and funding a genocide
He has no moral credibility and neither does the Democratic Party
We all know of his support. What you don’t seem to recognize is that Trump will be worse. Protest Biden’s support of Israel. Just don’t pretend that things will be get better by supporting Trump. We all know that’s a lie.
Also, the Republicans tried to pass Israel aid independent of Ukraine and Taiwan aid. Don’t pretend for a second that the Democrats in Congress are morally inferior to the Republicans.
The Democrats are arming and funding a genocide. Even George W Bush and Trump never did that.
Only one president in my lifetime ever armed and funded a genocide. That president is a Democrat and his name is Joe Biden
There were nearly one million deaths as a result of his two front war in Iraq and Afghanistan. You’re joking, right?
Trump has also made it clear that he would push Israel to finish what they started in Gaza.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/04/politics/trump-israel-comments/index.html
What are the elements of the crime of genocide, and how were they all present in Iraq?
Gaza is worse than that abomination because of Israels clear intent to exterminate a people. Which is what makes it genocide. This isn't a war with an unacceptably large amount of deaths - its a targeted extermination campaign that is also engaging in ethnic cleansing and collective punishment
If you can’t see the vilification and indiscriminate killing of Arabs as genocidal, and you’d rather argue semantics, then technically speaking Netanyahu’s horrific actions in Gaza are not genocide until determined by the ICC. Saying “Bush wouldn’t even do this” is absurd.
Genocide is a crime. Crimes have elements. Tell me how Iraq meets all of those elements
Its why Maos great leap forward isn't genocide. Did millions of people die? Yes. Did the CCP intend for those people to die? No. As opposed to the holocaust wherein the deaths of 9 million people were the clear intent.
Here, Netanyahu wants to exterminate the gazans and is doing so. Which makes it genocide
Mens rea/mental intent is a necessary and critical element of all criminal law. It's the distinguishing factor between murder and manslaughter. Or between genocide and neoconservative "nation building". It isn't semantics
It’s determined by the ICC and International law. If you’re being technical of the designation, that’s how it’s defined.
It is determined when the elements of a crime are satisfied.
A murderer has committed murder even if they are never arrested by law enforcement. Shoplifting has still occurred even if the thief is never prosecuted. Israel is committing genocide even if the ICC and ICJ (which are overwhelmingly funded by the United States and the West) never obtain a conviction.
Great, so we can either call killing 35,000 Palestinians and 900,000+ Arabs genocide, or agree it’s not by law. Semantics doesn’t change what happened in 2002, just like it doesn’t change what’s happening in Gaza now. Wrong is wrong, and saying Bush wouldn’t do this is wildly ignorant.
Bush didn't do this. War crimes may have been committed at Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib relating to torture and unlawful treatment of prisoners. And murder certainly occurred via Blackwater's massacres. But no targeted extermination of Iraqis as a group occurred.
During the Iraq War under the George W. Bush administration, there were significant allegations and documented instances of war crimes, particularly concerning the treatment of prisoners and the use of torture. However, the term "genocide" is specific and typically refers to acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group. There is no consensus or legal finding that genocide occurred during the Iraq War under these definitions.
Regarding war crimes:
Treatment of Prisoners and Torture The most notorious example was the abuse and torture of detainees at Abu Ghraib prison, which came to light in 2004. Photographs showing U.S. military personnel abusing and humiliating Iraqi prisoners sparked global outrage. Investigations revealed that the abuses included physical and sexual abuse, torture, rape, sodomy, and murder. These acts were violations of the Geneva Conventions, which protect detainees from inhumane treatment.
Legal Consequences: Some soldiers involved in the Abu Ghraib scandal were court-martialed, convicted, and sentenced to varying terms. However, higher-ranking officials and policymakers were largely not held accountable, leading to widespread criticism and allegations of impunity.
The broader context of the Iraq War includes other allegations of war crimes, such as the use of disproportionate force and illegal weapons.
However, genocide has a precise definition.
The crime of genocide is defined under international law by specific elements that must be present for an act to be legally recognized as genocide. These elements are outlined primarily in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948) and are further refined in the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (1998). Here are the critical elements:
Intent to Destroy: The perpetrator must have intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group, as such. This is known as the "special intent" or "dolus specialis".
Protected Groups: The targeted group must be identifiable and protected under the Convention, specifically as a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group.
Prohibited Acts: The Convention specifies the following acts, when committed with intent to destroy a protected group:
The Rome Statute also includes the forcible transfer of a group as an act of genocide when it is intended to destroy the group’s identity.
These elements combine to form the legal framework that courts and international bodies use to determine whether acts constitute genocide, focusing heavily on the perpetrator's intent alongside the nature of the acts committed.
Sure I get that, but I would also point out that you aren't personally getting food into Gaza. Trump is going to tear down the humanitarian aid for Palestinians that Biden and the Democrats are working through the diplomatic process.
When Trump is elected and this genocide becomes a success, make no mistake, you will have had a hand in that, and I think you would lose that ability to criticize Biden.
This is not happening. It's a fairy tale
Already is.
I think everyone who voted for Biden in 2020, which includes me, is culpable for this genocide.
Unfortunately, the United States is not a democracy. It is a dictatorship of the oligarchs. Which means there is no way to influence policy on which the oligarchs agree. This Zionist genocide is one such example. Another is single payer healthcare. And workplace democracy.
This country is a hellhole whose living conditions will continue to deteriorate for the rest of our lives, much like they have since 1968. Voting for Biden or for trump will not change that.
Moving to somewhere like Denmark is the best possible option. No American should have any hope for this country. It is naive to think that Biden and The Democrats will do anything to meaningfully improve the country or the world. They are owned by the oligarchs - they just don't actively hate guys or women.
You are privileged enough to go to Denmark, that's great.
They aren't accepting over 300 million migrants. Just because you won't be paying the repurcussions for your helping the Trump campaign doesn't make you the moral beacon you pretend to be.
No, I can't go to Denmark, actually. Everyone who can go, should go.
This country is fucked regardless of who wins. Neoliberals like the Democrats have destroyed the United States and killed the New Deal. Which is inevitably going to cause this country to elect a fascist. If not Trump in 2024, then someone else in 2028 or 2032. There is no way out of this except for socialism, or, at the least, social democracy. Which is impossible, because our oligarchs will never allow such a thing.
You and I are on the Titanic. Neither of us are getting a lifeboat. Accept that.
I gotta say this message has a pretty big red flag for me. The American movement is referred to as Democratic Socialism.
I don't think an American leftist would make that mistake, nor be unaware that our movement is actively infiltrating the democratic party, nor that our relevance within the Democratic Party has never been greater.
I'm sorry, but I think you are almost certainly astroturfing.
I have no idea what you're talking about
Sanders is a self-proclaimed democratic socialist. But so what? You think the average person under 40 is actually afraid of socialism? You think that's a bad word? What are you, a boomer?
Also, considering that you're defending American oligarchy and genocide, it's pretty clear that you're astroturfing
How's the weather at Eglin Air Force base in May?
Nothing you just said makes any sense.
The term you used "social democracy" is not what the movement is called in the US. That's a European thing. democratic socialism is the movement Americans Americans are fighting for.
It's curious that when I pointed this out to you, you immediately accused me of being a boomer in the air force afraid of Democratic socialism despite just being told I am one.
Thanks for outing your account!
Social democracy and democratic socialism are two completely different things. The former is liberalism (with an enormous welfare state - which is what the Nordic countries have and what the US has never actually had and have diminished since 1968.) The latter is socialism. Please do not correct anyone about misuse of terms unless you actually understand what you're talking about. Log off and read before spreading ignorance - unless you enjoy being accused of astroturfing.
...i am aware they are two separate things.
My god, bots are getting quite good. A boomer in the air force scared of socialism, for instance. Iquite creative.
You're embarrassed about being wrong and now you're lashing out.
So not only do you not understand political theory, but you're willing to defend genocide when it's done by the blue team
You should pray that hell does not exist
Lol. You are so adorable.
Actually, Democrats are funding and arming a genocide against Gazans
Find a list of people in Congress who have spoken out. What do they all have in common?
That they have not influenced policy on this issue at all and that they will be shortly electorally defeated by AIPAC endorsed candidates?