192
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 20 May 2024
192 points (85.3% liked)
politics
19096 readers
2749 users here now
Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!
Rules:
- Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.
Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.
Example:
- Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
- Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
- No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
- Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
- No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
That's all the rules!
Civic Links
• Congressional Awards Program
• Library of Congress Legislative Resources
• U.S. House of Representatives
Partnered Communities:
• News
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
It is a war and an urban warfare with civilian to combatant death ratio less than 2:1, while according to civiliansinconflict.org, typical ratio is more like 10:1.
You might want to argue it is an unjustified war, but genocide it is not.
It’s genocide dickhead.
Wow, your intelligence is blinding. You should be careful with that.
You might want to make up definitions for genocide but in 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly.
Then technically, ALL wars are genocide.
EDIT: so many downvotes, so little arguments against it. Predictable as it gets.
The key feature is the first part about "intent to destroy." Russia isn't trying to destroy the concept of Ukraine, either as an ethnicity or a country (they just want it to be a puppet-state obedient to their dictates). The US wasn't trying to destroy the concept of Vietnam or Vietnamese people.
Other people could draw different conclusions I guess, but to me it's undeniable that Israel's goal is to steadily destroy the whole concept of Palestine, with maybe some isolated individuals of Palestinian ethnicity still surviving in some location inside or outside Israel, but with Palestine itself completely erased.
They are forcefully removing children and telling them they are Russian. Which is exactly part of the quoted definition from the comment you are replying to.
Yeah, fair enough; maybe I picked a wrong example for one of my examples. I think most of the time, it's not that way though. Not that I'm saying that makes war good or anything.
Putin absolutely wants to destroy Ukraine. The definition above defines all wars that have ever happened.
Actually, Putin does want to destroy the concept of Ukraine and he said it is not a real country.
Woah I think I just saw some neurons firing
Yes the intent matters. Israel intent is to destroy Hamas. That’s not genocide.
It is when they consider every Palestinian to be hamas (and anyone who they don't like on a particular day)
And her we come back to civilian vs militants kill ratio, which is much lower than average numbers for urban warfare. You statement is just not supported by statistics.
Yes because they consider anyone they kill hamas
Intent does not matter when the direct results of premeditated actions slaughter children and innocent civilians. These aren't mistakes, they are literally being explained by Israel as the war rages on as collateral damage.
If this is acceptable on the world stage, then the only people "winning" in the near future will be government officials and very high ranking military personnel. What's the point of peace when it comes at such a cost?
The amount of aid alone that Israel continues to block, and even destroy, is absolutely sickening.
It wasn’t really in question when this was published back in October. It was genocide then and it continues to be genocide.
“The UN Genocide Convention lists five acts that fall under its definition. Israel is currently perpetrating three of these in Gaza: “1. Killing members of the group. 2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group. 3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.””
https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide
These are act of genocide. True, but the intent matters too (and I am sure it is described in the document you are linking to). And destruction of Hamas is not the intent compatible with genocide. If Israel wants to destroy citizens of Gaza as a group, then it is doing really shitty job, since somehow the civilian to military ratio is well below expectations for urban warfare.
Which are also what Hamas perpetrated on 10/7.
But what about….
Yes we know that Hamas is awful, evil, etc. That doesn’t give a moral pass to do just whatever to people who aren’t Hamas.
You're right. Both sides are awful, and neither side gets a pass. Both sides have been accused of crimes against humanity and war crimes by the ICC.
That said, neither side has been accused of genocide by the ICC. The difference between "genocide" and "crimes against humanity" is very important to some (for good reason), but not very important to others (also for good reason).
We're not selling weapons to Hamas.
That doesn't affect whether or not Hamas committed genocide.
And how does that absolve Israel?
Hamas is not generally considered to have committed genocide, which suggests that the definition of genocide does not depend only on those three factors.
And how does that absolve Israel?
Yes, I already know that people disagree on whether Israel is committing genocide.
I thought New Coke was better. But consensus reality disagrees, as it does concerning the Palestinian genocide accusation.
Consensus means a general agreement. There is no consensus on this issue, it is a matter of active debate.
Time will tell:
Yes, time will tell.
That said, even though I'm voting Democrat this fall I wouldn't claim we're approaching a national consensus without checking in on what the MAGA idiots think.
I'm confused, why are you acting like anyone here is defending Hamas? One foul deed does not make up for another. Israel is figuratively and literally shooting through civilians in order to kill Hamas. How is that acceptable?
Imagine if the police handled hostage situations like this. Some crazy guy pulls one of your loved ones away from you, puts a gun to their head, and threatens to fire... So the police just shoot them both.
Would you accept that? Would you thank the officer that shot them both?
I don't think anyone is defending Hamas. The question is, did Hamas commit genocide?
As evil as they are, I do not think they committed genocide. I think most would agree.
But they meet the same of OP's criteria as Israel. Hence, those criteria are not enough to establish that Israel committed genocide. (That does not mean Israel did nothing wrong!)
What Hamas did, was terror act, not genocide. What Israel does is war with Hamas in Urban territory where civilian to militant ratio 2:1 is considered to be much better than average urban warfare.
It may be frustrating that these talking points don’t work on Lemmy. Better luck next genocide.
Like if you squint at the numbers hard enough you cannot see starving children or murdered aid workers? Maybe that's why I keep hearing about how they're killing journalists.
Every conflict is a genocide if you squint your eyes hard enough
Not sure where you're getting those figures since the people keeping track of deaths were killed months ago.
Fucking ghoul
There are Hamas estimates of total death (~35,000). UN estimates are just Hamas estimates. There are Israel estimates ~30,000. Hamas estimates are for all deaths (including from natural causes and including due to Hamas rockets falling in Palestine). So the numbers are quite similar. I have seen different estimates how many Hamas militants were killed. The smallest is ~13K. If we take the largest number for total population killed (35K) then it is 22K civilians and 13K militants, with the ratio less than 2:1.
Two questions regarding your assertions
What are your sources(assuming they exist) for the estimates on militants killed?
How are your sources (again assuming they exist) defining militants vs civilians?
Displacement based on ethnicity and combat also counts
It is called ethnic cleansing in this case, not genocide.
You uhh ... You switched those ratios around there bud.
In what sense? I am stating that less than two civilians are killed for every militant.