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bOtH SiDeS!!1!
(i.imgur.com)
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Look I can be very direct and note that I explicitly said that white moderate liberals -- not tankies -- were the ones who passed the legislation that effectively turned long-time civil rights grievances into redressed law, and that is precisely what happened. But sure I'll fully acknowledge that without activists across the range from Malcolm X to MLK Jr., (whom Malcolm X basically said he wasn't leftist and aggressive enough) influenced aforementioned white moderate liberals to action. As I said (and as was deflected and ignored by you), MLK made that statement a year prior to the Civil Rights. Put another way, if anyone thinks MLK would be advocating to let Donald Trump in today by voting 3rd party or not voting, then they are out of their goddamned minds.
Nevertheless good luck getting white southern conservatives to be influenced to such action; and therein lies the difference between the two primary ideologies in America. The point being made is: Progress can still occur via liberals; the same cannot be said should you let Republicans get in office.
You prove the point that geography made the difference and as the realignment completed these northern Republicans and Democrats consolidated into a unitary Democratic banner. Also I do not understand what you're referring to when you write the coalition was majority Republican; it was majority Democrat. - 46 Democrats, and 27 Republicans in the Senate and 152 Dems to 138 Republicans in the House For. This makes the total For 198 Dems 165 Republicans. Nevertheless it almost doesn't matter, for as we noted these Republicans, the party of Lincoln still in transition of the party realignment as the Dixiecrats abandoned their coalition, effectively became the liberals of the modern Democrats. It really doesn't matter how one slices it; the overarching premise is that the North of Then voted in favor, and just so happens to split along the Mason-Dixon line just as it does today after the realignment. I sure as shit am not thanking a Southern confederate-adoring conservative, that's for sure; thus it must be predominantly the Northern Liberal amidst both parties during this transitional period who was more predisposed to abolition, more pro-union/labor, and anti-segregation.
Perhaps you're writing from a false premise; have you tried entertaining some humility? I'm open to being wrong, but let's work through this together, shall we?
I'm just in disbelief you're still parading around like an idiot making heros out of libs for eventually taking a minimum of action after a decade of protests and sit-ins by activists.
I'm just in disbelief that when the wise man points at the moon, you're still looking at the finger and missing the entire point, which is to say that as much as you complain about those big bad liberals, they're still the ones who actually end up passing the major laws that set the foundation for progress; and alllllllllllllllllllllllllllll the decades of cute sit-ins and protests by activists against fascist Republicans (of the modern day) would NEVER, EVER achieve a modicum of change.
Lmao without those libs obstructing progress those 'cute' protests and sit-ins wouldn't have been necessary
Correction:
FTFY.
And do tell me — which ideology and which party did all those Civil Rights activists from James Clyburn to John Lewis end up joining in Congress...? And which party does MLK Jr.'s descendants , and the vast majority of the black community continue to caucus with today...?
Oh yeah, "those libs."
Lol yea I'll give you that, because the worst thing that can happen to a lib is being accused of perpetuating an oppression that they consider themselves to be fighting against. It's the quality that both makes them stand in the way of progress and also receptive to agitation
So it's said, we shouldn't let perfection be the enemy of progress. These purity tests and Gatekeeping only work insofar as they have someone open to change from the inside where the laws are made.
Thank a White Liberal for the passage of the Civil rights act and for being a pathway to change; for, therein again lies the difference that you so whimsically continue to dodge. Liberals have always been the gateway for change. Hence why the aforementioned activists joined their banner.
Never once conservatives.
And for what it's worth, I'm significantly left of the average Democrat and modern liberal.
Well when you whack a liberal, candy falls out.
Of course I'm gonna keep whacking liberals
*edit for whackier language
It really isn't.
Thank God those poor Civil Rights leaders had such benevolent white saviors to help them.
No one thinks that, no one said that, you're just making up people to be mad at.
Yeah, this was always my point. It's in the second paragraph of my original comment. Nice reading comprehension.
OK, now we're starting to get into where you actually don't understand history. You seem to believe that the Republicans said, "actually, we want to do racism now, let's start the Southern Strategy!" and all the good Republicans that voted for the Civil Rights Act became Liberal Democrats. In reality, the Republican/Democrat party switch took decades and involved very few members actually switching parties (aside from the Dixiecrats). Most Republicans who supported the Civil Rights Act didn't become Democrats or Liberals, they just saw their party gather more racist members over the years until they retired. They didn't, "consolidate under a unitary Democratic banner," they were still Republican and fiscally conservative.
OK, I get it. You're looking at raw numbers without factoring in who controlled the House and Senate and how they voted. Only 153 out of 244 Democrats (63%) supported the Civil Rights Act vs. 136 out of 171 (80%) of Republicans. 46 out of 67 Senate Democrats (69%) vs 27 out of 33 (82%) Republicans. These white Liberals you keep praising weren't the reason it passed, they were the opposition. The same white Southern Democrats that backed the New Deal also fought tooth and nail against the Civil Rights Act, more than their conservative peers.
You're taking a modern understanding of Liberals and applying it to the Civil Rights Era. You're congratulating good white Liberals for passing the Civil Rights Act, when many of the major supporters would be considered conservatives and most of the opponents would be considered Liberals by most metrics. Beyond that, you're pretending that the Republican conservatives could retroactively be counted as Liberals because you fundamentally don't understand the party swap.
Besides that, your ranting about how tankies (which, by the way, you're incorrectly using to mean, "Socialists, Marxists, or other Leftists," but that's a whole other issue) didn't cast any votes in the Civil Rights Act, while ignoring that some of the most prominent voices in the movement where Democratic Socialists, Socialists, or other forms of, "tankie." Sure, they spent years getting beaten by police, attacked by segregationists, and told to slow down by incrementalisy Liberals, but they weren't in Congress, so according to you their not as important as white Liberals!
And then, after building this white-savior Liberal fantasy for yourself, you have the audacity to tell me entertain some humility? Sorry buddy, you're going to have to work through this one on your own.
https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/civil_rights/cloture_finalpassage.htm
https://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/2004/summer/civil-rights-act
Curse those liberals for demanding a stronger civil rights bill, right!?
Ergo: Liberals supported; conservatives resisted. No tankies in Congress. Thank a liberal. Yes, I'm aware that what is progressive for the time is comparatively conservative by today's standards; that doesn't change the point.
Congrats on completely ignoring everything I said about the nuances of Civil Rights Era politics and instead finding sources that only uses, "liberal," and, "conservative," as they refer to socal policies of the time. Don't think too hard about the fact that Dirksen was a staunch fiscal conservative who supported the Vietnam War, or that Strom Thurmond was a New Deal Democrat who supported public spending on the working class. I wouldn't want you to disrupt the ahistorical dichotomy you've created for yourself! Maybe Google, "tankie," before you use that word again, because you have no idea what it means! Good luck with the scholarships!
Pardon me, but I thought it best to cut through the noise (e.g., patent finger-in-ears denial akin to, "Nuh-uh!") and go straight to citing primary sources of which you curiously deflected; you see, you learn to do that with those fancy scholarships :)
To the contrary I'm pretty sure I pinned you into a corner after trying to claim it was conservatives not liberals who were the standard-bearers of the change. Here you're not trying to play games of equivocation and move the goalpost by essentially allegings, "buT LiBeRals AREn'T ReEallY LibERals!" I mean — what?
I really don't need to go any further, and it's a remarkable reality of your position that you cannot rummage up a single academic source to counter what I had already provided. However, it's a new day and I've got my coffee so let's address some bullshit:
Straw-man. No, that is not what I'm saying at all. If you would've read more closely what I wrote a couple responses back, you would've recalled that I noted the transition took time and didn't complete really until the '70s or even arguably Reagan. Considering
You're just not making any sense, here. (1) All the union strength and support was in the North. (2) YOU said it was a regional differentiation, with northerners voting in greater numbers. (3) Ergo, the vast majority of support came from districts and states predominantly pro-Union. So... ??? Or what, do you think the southern state's rights anti-union confederates suddenly decided to turn out in great numbers to support the bill...? Let me again remind you what actual historians have to say:
... But hey, why don't you go tell those scholars they're using the ideological labels incorrectly ;)
There really isn't much more to say. My original claim was: "not a single Tankie was in Congress who voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1964, now, did they? So yes, thank a Liberal for actually getting shit done." From that:
I PROVED:
I REMINDED YOU:
I therefore entirely reject the notion I'm, "cataclysmically wrong." Seems I'm actually right on the money.
Finally isn't it funny you quote MLK's "White Moderates" remark in 1963 who is ostensibly speaking of what we'd consider centrist liberal Dems today and those very white moderates did end up passing the bill in 1964? You still continue to deflect this amusingly.
Buddy, I can't help you. If don't want to acknowledge how much of the Democrats economically Liberal coalition were segregationists, I can't help you. If you want to believe that the Conservatives who supported Civil Rights legislation were actually Liberals, I can't help you. If you want to pretend that the leftist Civil Rights leaders who were beaten, jailed, and lynched did less for Civil Rights than the Congressmen they pressured into adopting their movement, I can't help you. If you want to say, "mLk ShAmEd CeNtRisTs BuT a YeAr LaTeR tHeY vOtEd FoR CiViL rIgHtS! HoW oDd!!!" WITHOUT EVER QUESTIONING IF THOSE TWO EVENTS WERE RELATED, I can't help you.
Anyway, I can't help you with the substance, but maybe I can help you with the style. The overly formal language you're using? ("Ergo," "I therefore entirely reject," "you continue to deflect this amusingly.") It may make you sound smart to dumb people, but it makes you sound dumb to smart people. It's unnatural and reeks of somebody who's trying to hard. It's why that other guy keeps posting that little meme of a smug guy under your comments. He's making fun of how cringey you sound.
Anyway, that's the best I can do for you. Go be wrong at someone else.
Buddy:
If I can't get through with direct quotes from those who were a part of that era, specifically noting liberals FOR and conservatives OPPOSED
If I can't cite primary historical sources from Senate.gov and Archives.gov detailing the same.
If you can't muster a single source to support your position that contrasts what I already cited, as you simultaneously ignore these direct quotes...
... Then I believe we are done here.
Buddy, if you can't actually remark on exactly where I'm using language wrong, then it's FAR more probable that my word-choice might just strike above what you're used to and this a desperate attempt to sling shade.
Besides, if I "dumbed down" my language to my Appalachian roots, then you'd try condescension with me and espouse how much more educated and academic you are to me. Apparently I beat you to the punch, and that upsets you. Who knows -- maybe there's a bit of personal insecurity and projection going on here. All I know is that it's a pretty fucking pathetic low-blow. Should be noted that I tend to reflect the tone and let them stoop to a lower level. So maybe look in the mirror. If you can't take it, then don't dish it out, buddy.
As for the other user, I don't really care — that kid's frankly not that bright or informed on the issues. At least you presented a cogent argument by contrast. If you think I'm being smug, go join the fucking Trumpers who cry about elitism and feeling insecure around people who are educated — I really don't care, buddy. Now until you actually respond to my sources, my logic, instead of hopping around more than the Easter bunny, then kindly stay down.
Frankly because now your argument has descended into personal attacks on me it sounds like you're — as you said — "cataclysmically" desperate.
I think for fun I'll just re-quote the primary sources:
Go be wrong at someone else.
Look at that false confidence.
No, I'm good right here.
Speaking frankly: you're just not worth responding seriously to. You treat every interaction as if it's the worst type of performative debate, and every point is argued antagonistically and purposefully misrepresentative of the comment being responded to.
I learned a long time ago that being earnest with anyone so eager for 'debate' online is pretty pointless.
Maybe next time you'll at least be more subtle.
I'm not worth it, but boy do you go around replying to all my comments obsessively! What's wrong with taking serious discussions, well, seriously? Sorry, I'm just not a meme person, and I frankly don't believe I remotely approached the pettiness as you and the other user in striking low to substitute a lack of substantive rebuttal.
Have you entertained the humbling possibility you're just being out-classed and that's making you uncomfortable? I mean when you make legitimate points I'm willing to yield, such as when you gave me that link to a more recent poll on US perception of Israeli actions.
I know Trump speaks and writes at a 4th grade level and with more memes though — maybe that's more your speed?
You've been active in exactly the same post comments as I have been, I've seen you everywhere this week and I find it difficult not to mock you because you make it so goddamn fun.
This is exactly the 'performative debatelord' behavior I'm talking about. It would be one thing if we were having a disagreement we were working through, but you treat it like it's boxing match. I'm under no obligation to speak with you, let alone enter into some strange sparring match where positions are just weapons to wield against an opponent that you pick up and put down when it's convenient. Even your use of the word 'yield' is reflective of this weird adversarial behavior that is hard not to regard as incredibly adolescent and worthy of scorn.
Ok, Formal Frank is going back to bed now, here comes Silly Willy. I'm turning my meme-mode setting back on, just as a fair warning that any further attempts at defeating me in the marketplace of ideas will be met with unrelenting mockery.
I feel I've done nothing of the sort. I'm entirely supportive of engaging in the mutual pursuit of truth, but when my opposition first engages in bad faith arguments, deflections, fallacies, then snarky adolescent memes followed by personal attacks then you open the door to me responding however I wish. It's not my fault you lack the capacity to discuss formally and maturely.
If you go back to the beginning you'll find you engaged in these downward-spiraling antics first.
In other words you're holding me to a higher standard then you hold yourself. Embrace some humility and learn from your mistakes.
Thoughts and prayers for my humility, which has sadly died in a tragic mass-shooting accident.