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this post was submitted on 21 May 2024
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I can understand being unwilling to vote for Biden because he’s supporting genocide. That, taken by itself, is perfectly reasonable.
Why aren’t those otherwise intelligent, thoughtful people looking at the bigger picture, though?
Don’t they understand that under Trump, things will be much worse? What’s their moral rationale for allowing fascism to take over America, and empowering untold numbers of reprehensible people? I’m trying to understand, but I just don’t get it.
They don't seem to understand that the Israel/Palestine situation is not on the ballot this November; does anyone actually think Trump would oppose Israel? Even if he personally wanted to, his supporters are all nominal Christians who would turn on him in an instant if he suddenly stopped supporting God's Chosen People.
Except for the anti-Semites, who make up a decent chunk of his active base. Or are they also pro-Israel?
Can anyone explain to me how the Nazis and pro-Israel crowds seem to be so friendly at the moment? It’s almost like this has nothing to do with Israel.
Yes.
Antisemite support of Israel is very common, because antisemites:
The Cristo-fascists are actively hoping for an Armageddon situation to bring about all their end of world predictions. The IDF may belong to a different abrahamic cult but they’re useful for fomenting that chaos in the region and lighting the lamp for jeebus or whatever the fuck they believe
They understand perfectly and that's why they're making it on the ballot. So what's it going to be: continue supporting genocide and lose votes or stop supporting genocide and gain votes? Seems like an obvious choice, but maybe you're too smart and understand too much over the masses you look down upon.
Unfortunately most of Biden's voting base hasn't paid attention to politics since 243BC so they still think Israel is the good guy
The even bigger picture is the trend of things getting progressivelly worse even when Democrats are at the helm.
For example, it was Clinton that reppealed the Glass-Steagal Act which in turn led to hyperfinancialization and the 2008 Crash and it was Obama who chose to then save Asset owners in general (i.e. the Wealthy), unconditionally and on the backs of everybody else, leading to the slowest recovery from a Crash ever and all the imballances of the US Economy at the moment which as manifesting themselves as a complete total collapse in Social Mobility and rise of Inequality and Poverty.
Clearly electing Democrats doesn't improve things either.
The problem is of course that the US is not a Democracy (hence how there are only 2 carefully selected real options, which in this election are so bad that they're both hard Genocide supporters) so merelly voting for a President won't solve anything, and the only solution probably involves levels of political activism Americans aren't used to (one might even say they've been conditioned against it) such as General Strikes.
I can’t argue with anything you said. I can only argue that under Democrats, authoritarianism and the erosion of civil rights happen slower. We’ll have more time to acclimate ourselves to the concept of a General Strike. There’s no reason to give facism a helping hand by skipping the election.
It's my impression that Historically the slow bloil tends to breed acceptance, not rebellion, and when it doesn't there is generally a long period (decades, even centuries) of misery after the slow decay before people finally force a change for the better.
I can see your point, I just don't agree with your expectation that the slow crumble will be a less painfull way overall to get people to do what it takes to recover than the crash-n-burn - yeah, it's less painful immediatelly, but the pain lasts longer and the depths reached are probably much worse since human perception of how bad a crisis is, is based on where they were before not on absolute terms, so a crash-n-burn (i.e. a crisis, unlike the slow crumble) needs not collapse things quite as badly as the slow crumble to induce a general feeling that "this is unnacceptable".
All that said, I'm fortunate I'm not an American or living in America and that the actions of both Trump and Biden (more the former) have made the US be seen as "not all that great" and "a bad example to follow" over here so the contagion factor for whatever happens over there is a lot less than it would have been a decade or two ago.
I can safelly wonder about all that at an intellectual level safe in a country that's not really going to hurt from the changes taking place in America.
It's always going to be this way. Every election will be an emergency. Every election in my lifetime has been. We're in an abusive relationship and we need to get out of it. We need to break the duopoly. We need sane polling methods. But, no. Just like they keep us divided they're keeping us distracted.
The problem is that roughly half of voters want that crazy shit, so until they're overwhelmingly the minority and have no chance of winning, they will have a platform.
If you want to understand, I can explain fairly simply.
Consider this thought experiment. We are getting $100 to split, but only if they can agree on how to split it: I get to make an offer, then you choose whether to accept. If you announce that you'll accept whatever deal so long as accepting is better than the alternative - that is, that you'll act "rationally" - then the rational thing for me to do is to offer you only $1, while I get $99. Researchers have actually tested this game in real life, however, and it generally doesn't play out that way. Why? Because the numbers don't tell the whole story of what you're giving up by accepting a bad deal. Once you've demonstrated that you'll accept a deal like that, then you're communicating something about your behavior for all future deals. It may be rational in the context of a closed experiment, but for the general case, our minds know better than what may appear "rational" at first glance. If you tell me, "I will refuse anything less than $30," then you are openly declaring that you intend to behave "irrationally" and trying to convince me that you will - and it would most likely produce better results than behaving "rationally."
The moment that you say, "My only condition for voting for the democrats is that they be better than the republicans, who are unimaginably horrible," you have sacrificed every ounce of bargaining power that you could've wielded. So the real calculation is not "Who's better between Trump and Biden," but rather, is the difference between Trump and Biden worth sacrificing all my bargaining power?" And for me, the fact that Biden is supporting genocide makes that decision very easy and straightforward. I'd rather at least try to leverage what power I have against genocide altogether, rather than supporting the "lesser genocide." If I cannot set even something like genocide as a red line, then I am very clearly communicating to politicians that they can count on my vote no matter what they do, and they have no reason to ever consider my political priorities.
Thank you for taking the time to explain. That is by far the best answer I’ve seen.
And yet your actions will lead to "more genocide" while you go and jerk off in the mirror with your newly gained bargaining power! Good job!
If Democrats lose to Donald Trump, then it will be entirely their own fault. Progressives have said for years and years exactly what they want, but Democrats think it's much more important to appease the Trump voters than it is to appease us. Let's see how that pans out.
From my perspective it seems like Democrats are trying to lose.
The people who fund the pro-Oligarchic Neoliberals who control the Democratic Party are the same people who fund a similar faction plus the Fascist faction in Republican Party, so either way they win.
For them the little mice under the table squealing "Vote Biden to stop Trump!!!" are just entertainment.