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Neverminding the evidence to the contrary.
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 28 May 2024
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Veganism isn't a religion. It's a simple moral framework, a practical moral baseline, and a social movement like any other. Would you call a social justice, anti-genocide, or lgbtq+ rights advocate a religious zealot?
Suuure.
And not all social justice advocates treat it like a religion. But some do.
Also, trying to compare veganism, a system of belief, to genocide resistance and human rights is absurd to the point that it exactly makes my point.
There is no world in which fighting genocide is the same thing as avoiding animal products. None, no way, no how. The arrogance of your statement is so far beyond the usual responses my little troll statement gets that I'm outright flummoxed. I can't believe anyone would be that stupid, that arrogant, that ridiculous.
And that goes just as much for lgbt+ rights. You are outright absurd making that comparison.
And that absurdity is exactly why veganism is a religion to way too many vegans. Like, I'm not anti vegan, I know and love many, I just like getting online vegans riled up for entertainment. But you jumped the damn shark big time homie. That kind of thinking, that's why people that hate vegans hate them.
Man, I find it hard to not just start calling you names because damn, son.
What is this "system of belief" exactly?
Veganism. I said that
I meant, please clarify what is the belief, not the name of it
Are you messing with me? Because I'm not in the mood to play games.
If you aren't, I'm afraid we're going to have issues unless we start from a different place.
What I wrote was: >...veganism, a system of belief...
Now, when written that way, the phrase "a system of belief" is being used to specify that that is what veganism is. And that's what it is.
If you don't know what veganism is, I would suggest you ask someone that doesn't troll vegans for a proper answer. Though, to be honest, veganism isn't a single, universally codified system. It's more like a general heading that includes a fairly wide range of what is and isn't "really vegan". So even asking vegans, you can get varied answers.
If you really want my quick and dirty synopsis of veganism, it comes down to two basic principles.
First, that animals must be treated in a way that would be completely without exploitation.
Second, that causing the death of an animal to serve the wants/needs of humans is a very specific and very "wrong" way of exploiting animals.
That's about the core of it. All the rest is essentially defining what is and isn't exploitation.
I'm sure a vegan would at least quibble over that over simplified explanation, but IDGAF, that's what it amounts to looking at it from the outside. A bunch of folks that have strong beliefs about how animals and humans should share the planet.
If you go digging into vegan writing on the ethics of a human/animal interactions, there are a lot of ways of expanding on that simplified version, but having read some of it when offered by vegans I know personally, in real life, I would say that my version is good enough for someone that's never seen the word before.
Now, veganism isn't exactly a unique thing in execution. Plenty of people around the world don't eat meat at all. And there's some of those that don't use animal products at all. But, they aren't necessarily Vegan. It isn't a central part of their identity. It comes down to cultural norms, poverty, availability, or some other factor than a specific belief about human/animal ethics.
Veganism as you'll see in English using forums is quite different from that because it has another central belief that you don't see in most of the writings about it. And that is why I use the specific troll that vegans are religious zealots. That other belief is that they're right and everyone else is wrong, period. And, much like zealots of other religions, the bad vegans will often treat other humans poorly when they don't agree with them.
There is only one TRUE BELIEF, and that is veganism.
That is a wee bit of hyperbole, of course. Not every vegan is an arrogant zealot. No more than any other belief based group. As I said, I have people in my life that are vegan, and I love them. I cherish them in my life. But they're not assholes :)
I cook vegan food for them. I even cook vegan for them when I'm already cooking "regular" food to feed a dozen or so people and they're the only vegan coming.
Anyway, that's not only what veganism is, but why the entire thread happened.
If that didn't answer your question, I'll try to do better.
If you were just trolling the troll, then I'll just let it go and hope you have a good day :)
i wasnt trolling, just that I was surprised that you called it a religious thing when it was just a silly meme about an anti-vegan talking point... at no point was there any kind of theism or superiority complex, it was just a funny joke... but you took a lot of time out of your day to write this so thank you. I'm vegetarian myself and am very well aware of what veganism is. What I didn't agree with is that it was a belief akin to a religion
Well, that's cool :)
But have you never run into the vegans that treat it like holy scriptures? That vegan is the one and only true way to be ethical and/or moral? I mean, I can believe that, it's not like you'd run into that if you aren't frequenting the places where the proselytize online (I've never had one dumb enough to do it in person).
It really is a thing that they treat being vegan as a command from on high than anyone who doesn't fall in line is not just wrong, but bad. Not all vegans for sure, just the most visible ones because the chill vegans and vegetarians are just living their best life and eating well.
But, because of that obnoxious branch, I get a cheap giggle out of riling them up because calling them zealots gets the worst ones to act like zealots. It really reminds me of my pet chicken. Doesn't take much to get her little wattles and comb bright red, and that tail twitching. And, since I have a very vivid imagery ability, that's what I see when I pull this childish troll. Just some random person with their arms bent, flapping them and squawking madly as they scratch the ground. I did mention it's childish, right? Me trolling them is childish, but I can't seem to help myself. It's almost as fun as going to to a group of fellow metalheads and asking them if they love that amazing metal band, nickelback.
idk if thats rly nice getting fun out of other's frustration :c I thought we were over this your nickelback joke was funny tho xd
Eh, when you put out obvious bait, and a fish runs with it, it's kinda on the fish.
You throw out some kind of weird fly, any fish with sense is going to be wary.
Vegans are the fish in this analogy. When there's a troll so obvious that a teenager is like "dad, does anyone ever actually fall for that?", and the vegan fish not only nibble at the bait, they swallow the whole dang rod, it's almost like the bait is true. I mean it is true, but it's still also an obvious thing meant to take the piss.
It's irresistible to me because it has never once, in over a decade of doing it on various forums, failed entirely. At most, it would take a day or two to get noticed before someone comes screeching in, ready to lambast and be nasty. I have zero guilt about messing with the kind of people that take the bait.
sImPlE mOrAl fRaMeWoRk
You are completely ignoring the fact, that for many it is too time consuming and involved to go vegan. And then you are imposing your belief that others should invest the same amount of resources, be it time or money, or they are worse human beings not caring about animals. In other words, being able to switch your diet is usually a sign of at least slight financial privilege. I just had some tofu so you don't have to preach to me. But let others be and do not compare veganism to anti-genocide. It is absolutely ridiculous.
First off, I am not vegan or even vegetarian. But every time I eat meat I am very aware that I am doing this from a very hedonistic point. It is not necessary for either my health or survival, nor is it morally or ethically ok. It just is not. Trying to find anything other than I like how it tastes as an argument is futile. But again, I am saying this as a person who does eat meat, not daily, but regularly.
It is not time consuming. Instead of making noodles with minced meat and tomato sauce you make noodles with tomato sauce. You literally leave out one ingredient, that's it. Especially going vegetarian is literally a no brainer. If you aren't too anal about being vegan (trace amounts etc) this is also really not time consuming. You don't need to do fancy vegan recipes with sprouts or quinoa, this is the equivalent of cooking a beef wellington with truffle sauce for lunch. Even your walk through a supermarket is shorter because you don't need to go through the meat aisle.
You and I are less caring about animals and the planet. Even if we buy organic free range meat, we know the carbon footprint. We know that an animal was scared before its life ended untimely and unnecessarily. Let's not fool ourselves here: It's not a belief. It is what it is. It is a choice to make but let's be clear: it is a choice. And as with every choice, it has consequences. Moneywise, I think I won't tell you anything new by pointing out that meat substitute products are expensive, but a plain vegetable based diet is not per se expensive. Although I am very baffled by how little meat can cost - but we are talking about the lowest standard meat here. A kg of free range chicken breast is 30€ where I live. I can't afford that every day for sure. And again, you don't have to buy fancy sprouts, pea protein sausages, quinoa and all that. Rice, a can of kidney beans fried with an onion, and some sauteed veggies are a full meal which will not cost more or is more difficult or time consuming to make than any meat dish. Hell there's even convenience food for vegetarians and vegans, which will - as all convenience products - cost more than if you prepared it yourself, but choose the resource you want to spend.
With a push to leave out meat, fish, and animal products, you are not being told to buy something. You are being told to leave something out. But I absolutely agree that if you are struggling to get by, then a kg of low quality chicken wings will get you fuller than a kg of bell peppers, which might also be more expensive. But the greatest majority of us - those not on food stamps or counting every penny - can absolutely afford to go vegan/vegetarian or at the very least leave out meat once in a while. Especially if you usually try to look for better quality meat (which is on the more expensive site) you can easily save money by leaving out meat.
If anything, not eating meat is more effective and more directly effective on ecological movements than protesting will be on your country's (assumed by me) support of genocide. It's very easy compared to much more complex issues. There are a lot of problems in the world that cannot be compared well but are all very important. You can address one and the other.
There is evidence to suggest that low income households are more likely to be vegan or vegetarian than high income households. So financial privilege is not a good deflection. The reason so many vegans are not sympathetic to the argument about time or effort is that for the vast majority of them they have lived experience contradicting it so it comes across as an excuse. they are not spending any more time or mental effort to eat than anybody else. When you first make the switch maybe you spend 10% more effort to learn new recipes, what you buy or whatever, but it quickly becomes routine as any other dietary system.
(I say they because I don’t identify as vegan for a variety of reasons, but it does make it easier to have a conversation to use labels. I don’t advocate people become vegan, but I do advocate they try to reduce their animal product intake the best they can. In the rare circumstance that the best they can is nothing I don’t judge.)
To me It seems you are upset that people are putting you in a moral category below themselves and your reaction is to assume that means they are wrong. Firstly, don’t think of people as putting you below them morally, but putting your actions into less desirable outcomes. Also, sit with that. Should you feel uncomfortable? If so, what is an appropriate reaction to that discomfort?
I don’t think it’s productive to quibble about whether it’s comparable to human ethical questions, so no comment on the genocide. People have been in trouble in the past for making comparisons to Jim Crow or slavery. I don’t think it’s appropriate either, just as it would be inappropriate to argue whether Palestinian genocide or slavery was worse.
nonetheless, during any time of ethical or moral awakening, there were people complicit with status quo in those scenarios, maybe even sympathetic to some of the arguments but valued social order over progress, who were asked to confront their complicity and they blamed the people pointing this out as the judgy problem starters rather than addressing the root problem.
I have many friends which are vegan and we live in an area + work in an industry with a comparatively high amount of people with such a diet. We have talked about the topic at lengths, and my understanding is that in order to have a healthy diet you have to do quite a bit of research and spend time planning your meals. And then going out on a dinner is often a pain, although this has improved in the recent years.
We eat much less meat than the general public. But going the next step and eliminating meat and then diary products is not trivial. Unless you have less responsibilities and or more prior knowledge to get you up to speed. I simply do not have the time for that, I have a small kid to take care of. And we often struggle to plan enough meals ahead of time in the short period of time between finishing work and doing groceries.
It might sound like an excuse to you. It feels the same on my end, when my concerns are dismissed with some hand waving by people which usually are in a completely different place in their life than me.
The thing is, you could argue you need to do all that research to verify you’re eating enough of the right things, but in some sense you should be doing that regardless of whether your diet is vegan. But most people don’t bother, they just eat whatever and go to the doctor every once in a while and if there is a big gap somewhere the doctor will point it out. The lazy vegan diet is no more unbalanced than a lazy Omni diet. You can just not think about it, it’s not like you will immediately die if you are lacking in some nutrient. If you are supplementing with a multi vitamin or even just taking only B12 and iron, chances are you’re eating enough different kinds of things just by happenstance that you don’t even have to think about “complete proteins”.
If you only eat potatoes and Oreos then yeah you’ll have a bad time, but who is doing that? Do you count your carb, protein, fat intake? Daily caloric intake? Your lysine? Your riboflavin? Why don’t you? How are you so sure you’re getting enough already? Do you think vegans sit around counting that stuff too? I buy the usuals at the grocery store, I just make/eat whatever I feel like and have a couple weeks worth of recipes I rotate through same as everyone else, eat out once or twice a week at normal restaurants with vegan options. It’s not hard no matter how much you insist it should be.
When I hear its too hard my lived experience tells me it’s entirely possible to think about food the absolute minimum required, so it seems either like an excuse or ignorance.
The thing is, you could argue you need to do all that research to verify you’re eating enough of the right things, but in some sense you should be doing that regardless of whether your diet is vegan. But most people don’t bother, they just eat whatever and go to the doctor every once in a while and if there is a big gap somewhere the doctor will point it out. The lazy vegan diet is no more unbalanced than a lazy Omni diet. You can just not think about it, it’s not like you will immediately die if you are lacking in some nutrient. If you are supplementing with a multi vitamin or even just taking only B12 and iron, chances are you’re eating enough different kinds of things just by happenstance that you don’t even have to think about “complete proteins”.
If you only eat potatoes and Oreos then yeah you’ll have a bad time, but who is doing that? Do you count your carb, protein, fat intake? Daily caloric intake? Your lysine? Your riboflavin? Why don’t you? How are you so sure you’re getting enough already? Do you think vegans sit around counting that stuff too? I buy the usuals at the grocery store, I just make/eat whatever I feel like and have a couple weeks worth of recipes I rotate through same as everyone else, eat out once or twice a week at normal restaurants with vegan options. It’s not hard no matter how much you insist it should be.
When I hear its too hard my lived experience tells me it’s entirely possible to think about food the absolute minimum required, so it seems either like an excuse or ignorance.
Don't compare veganism to anti-genocide? My anointed sibling (gnostic gender-neutral idioms >> orthodox gendered ones), every animal product eater/user is complicit in the largest perpetual genocide in human history.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Hershaft
In the first place remember that veganism isn't only about diet. And it's about doing the best that you can, with what you have. Not everyone can go fully vegan, and that's understandable and okay as long as they're doing their best.
Also, I've never owned property. I've never worked a job that paid enough to afford it (or rent) on my own. When I started transitioning my diet, it was when I had switched jobs to a factory setting with 40-48 hour work weeks (post-covid it was almost always 48 hours), 10 hour shifts on my feet all day. Prior to that I was dependent on eating fast food every day (with predictable rapidly declining health). I also lived in a food desert where going vegan meant that I had zero options for takeout.
I had no one in my life willing to help, in fact all the people around me made it even harder to change. I also have adhd, and can't stand the concept of meal prep. So what I did was save up for an Instant Pot, and started making the largest batches of grains and legumes that I could, along with frozen veggies (mainly broccoli). I generally cooked only once a week, and then would combine the helpings of leftovers in different ways each day (to keep it from getting too boring) for both my work lunches and dinners.
And I also sought community. Having vegan friends helps immensely.
Don't assume that I'm as privileged as you think just because I'm vegan. On the other hand I know there are too many people who are far worse off than I am, and everyone who is struggling too much to go fully vegan should never be condemned, on the contrary we should seek to help - because our current food system is killing everyone who is most disadvantaged and impoverished.
Our capitalist wasteland, particularly when you factor in health outcomes, means it's even more important to at least go plant-based (not the same thing as veganism), and to help others do the same.
https://www.theyretryingtokillus.com/fact-sheet
it's not a genocide. the goal isn't to wipe out pigs or chickens or cows.
It’s perpetual misery and slaughter.
i'd say husbandry then harvesting. i think most of the people who make our food would, too.
(Ignoring that our industrial animal-food system is probably a significant contributor to the vast extinctions we're causing, since animal ag is the leading cause of wild habitat destruction).
Would you feel better about the human genocides that occur, if the mass murderers were deliberately and forcibly breeding the victims into existence so they could continue the cycles of killing perpetually? Or is playing word games more important than recognizing the reality of what we are doing collectively?
i wouldn't feel any better about it, but it's not a genocide. if anyone is playing word games, is the person who insists on using the wrong word.
I feel like you missed the point at the detriment of people taking your position seriously. Words and their definitions are very important in communication and I feel like semantics is something that is very undeserving of the flippant treatment it routinely receives.
If someone were to accuse someone else of lying, this also comes with an accusation of intent. It isn't sufficient for someone's statement to be false to be a lie, there also needs to be intent to deceive. Intent to deceive implies that the liar at least knows what they're saying is untrue, and possibly implies they know what is actually true depending on the context. However, if there is no intent to deceive, it's usually a case of that person just being mistaken. How frustrating would it be for someone to be accused of lying when they say something they believe to be true? And how seriously should they take their accusers when not only being told their view of reality is incorrect, but also being informed that their own intent is malignant when stating something they believe is true?
So, when it comes to describing something as a genocide, you're also describing intent. If you tell people that they're killing animals with the intent to extinct them, they're probably not going to take you seriously. It's probably better to have someone tell you what their intentions are rather than just assuming you can slap a piece of paper saying "this is you" on a scarecrow before drop-kicking it.
I think it's just a diet.
Vegetalism is a diet, veganism is a bit more than that
My diet has been really deficient in leather jackets since becoming a vegan, at least I can still eat fruit leather.
This is your take, from someone who defines themselves as militant? Lol.
It's absolutely a religion. One of the definitions of religion is "a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance." The examples you mention are much less narrowly defined. And if they started persecuting people who don't join their specific method, then yes, they would be, too.
I mean, here you are proselytizing with poorly thought out memes. What's more religious than that?
If pursuing something ascribed supreme importance is a religion, then being a doctor is a religion. Doctors ascribe supreme importance to the value of human life and to saving it.
Then it is. Not all doctors do, but ones who do would certainly fall under that category.
You see doctors educating, not badly trying to shame people to, for example, not participate in sports.
You would agree, then, that making fun of anti-vax people is unjustified, hateful, and forcing the religion of medicine down people's throats?
Yes
Yes. Education works much better than mockery. Mocking people is for people who need to stroke their own egos. I'm confident in what I believe.
Ha ha. What a doofus.
If you're going to troll, at least try to put some cleverness into it.
No, you're genuinely a doofus.
It's an idiotic position. I don't need to waste time trying to educate you. You're convinced you're correct.
All I can really do is call you a doofus.
(which you are)
My hope is that you will eventually learn that "FaCTs aND LoGiC" is not always sufficient to persuade someone who has their head up their ass.
If being a doofus is having respect for people whose beliefs don't match my own, then I'm happy to be one. I wish more people were doofuses. Maybe we could actually solve a few problems.
Except you don't have respect. You came in here throwing around accusations of religious dogma.
Like, damn dude, I just eat more vegetables than you.
You're intolerant of us because we have a different moral framework than you. You piss and moan at the mere mention of anything vegetarian.
Meanwhile I interact with meat eaters, every single fucking day, and I manage not to be a complete ass. You can't seem to manage it even once.
You don't even know my diet. Lol. You're assuming what I eat just because I don't agree with your methods.
I never used the word dogma. I just agreed with another commenter that veganism is a religion. I don't happen to see a problem with religion, so don't see that as an insult. I'm just labeling it what it is. Veganism is a religion. Eating vegan isn't necessarily.
But you are right in an oblique kind of way. I have respect for other people's beliefs. Not necessarily their behavior. And yours and OP's is ineffective at actually trying to convince anyone of anything. If I were you, and really believed what I claimed to believe, I'd want to know that.
lol
I think you just never made the effort to learn how to present arguments.
You’re saying “not my job” but I’m hearing “not in my skill set”.
It aint a religion my man.
It's #7 on the combo menu.
If they act like a zealot, then yes. Most, like most vegans, are not zealots and we can have a great conversation. Your name gives me the feeling that a productive conversation might be difficult. But, I'll try my best. 😁
I chose my username to make fun of all the people who categorize vegans as militant anytime we speak out at all. It's to highlight that the only vegan who isn't seen that way is a vegan who stays silent and does nothing to speak out against the atrocities being committed against animals.