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this post was submitted on 09 Jun 2024
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Just a shout-out that Mac OSX is also a very nice OS that is neither Windows nor Linux. In fact I am interested: would anyone argue against this, again this is for parents, presumably someone who has (been forced to) used Windows their entire lives at work yet knows nothing whatsoever about tech?
I would much rather have them on Linux. The thing with OSX is that the UI works very differently from Windows. Going between KDE and Windows is very similar, but I still don't know how to use OSX
As long as you are available to be on-call to fix literally all of their support issues:-). That's an old joke, back from the time people used to have "printers", and so like on a Windows and Mac machine adding a new peripheral is trivially easy whereas to install a new printer/scanner/whatever on a Linux machine, even if it is as simple "apt get whatever" can be quite intimidating to elderly people (tbf the OP does say "parent" and not "grandparent", but I was thinking both).
Anyway, that's a good point that I have no fully thought through yet:-).
I think you may be misremembering some osx fun with cups in the past, just like with Linux. Honestly most activities for the older folks these days is mobile or web based, the tech support needs for them is about the same regardless of OS imo.
Back when I did solo IT work (a good 20+ years ago now), the questions were pretty much the same no matter what was being used too, though the Linux desktops at the time were usually focused on specialty hardware (so the dot matrix they were connecting to was about as easy as it could get).
At the time though, macs were getting popular again, even among folks like me who appreciated Darwin and thought OSX would lean more heavily into open source rather than the outright thievery they ended up doing, but that part is neither here nor there.
I'd say back then it was maybe 65/25/10 split of windows/osx/linux (usually redhat there, and two machines with slack), but the questions were mostly the same. And no matter what OS it was, it usually became a request for me to just do it for them on my next trip over.
If anything, aside from specific bits of software that may be unique to an industry and someone actively working, which OS has gotten far, far, far less important than it used to be.
Boomers in particular are known for extremely often falling into the trap of "ask not what I can do for you but what I can get out of you", so yeah, that makes sense. And when it comes to a personal desktop I actually get it b/c while you may be busy with work + kids & having a real life where you touch grass, and then something doesn't work, at that point it's less of a choice to have to spend hours trying to find why this driver doesn't work with your hardware, and what older dependencies you are not meeting, so you have to roll backwards and then set up multiple concurrent installations of whatever e.g. Python and then change EVERYTHING to either use one or the other by default... it's exhausting.
Which as a "hobby" is fine (is it thogh...?:-P), but if you were simply trying to look at pics of your newest grandkids or something, is standing in the way of the real fun that you want to be having instead.
And using computers - and software - is literally a shittier experience today than it used to be, where even the major vendors (Google, Microsoft, etc.) don't walk you through what you need to do in order to get some particular setting applied or working right. For some reason they cannot be bothered to always put onto their tech pages tiny little details like what version of the software a tidbit of advice is meant for, or what I would want would be to see all of the versions collated together on the same page. It's too much work to keep up, therefore they simply don't. And average people just give up in frustration.
Therefore fwiw I like Macs b/c you need that support far less on one of those, where it truly does "just work", far more often than Linux, yet doesn't have literal ads in the Start Bar like Windows.
I don't know if I can agree on that, I personally find osx frustrating even today with how little control users are provided with, but I've also been a Linux user for far longer than just about anything else.
Still though, I do put OSX above Windows these days - purely based on software, not their hardware/price - for being easier than windows.
With package managers and stable desktop solutions (Debian for example), I think it's easier now than ever to ditch the proprietary and have a better experience.overall as a user.
You make a valid point.
One counterpoint does come to mind: Cost. The hardware to run it on ain't cheap
(Im not up to date on the used market and the cut off point where old macs become unsupported and stop receiving software updates)
Macs are horribly overpriced even used.
I am looking at Best Buy and Intel Macs from 4 generations ago are still going for 500-600 dollars, and that's on a low-end MacBook Air circa 2012 with an i5.
For reference, I recommend used ThinkPads to anybody looking for a business machine and they are generally under 400 dollars for basically twice as much power.
Okay so (1) very good points, especially the details but also (2) genuinely, have you ever actually tried using a Mac? e.g. the glass feeling of the touchpad is noice, for someone who can afford it. And those built-in Expose features are astonishingly useful, in providing things that I had previously only ever seen on a Linux or even new features that I never had. They are super-light, and functionally beautiful. The "Air" in particular at that point was iirc more of an almost tablet concept, not meant to be a full laptop, so like something to take to class and write notes in, not perform video editing in like a Pro - though it still had a full-sized standard keyboard, unlike some ThinkPads that I had to use (though way back in the day so not sure about modern ones there) where the keyboards were all smooshed and I had to spend 15 fucking minutes hunting for the damn tilda/backtick key.
Ngl, Apple got complacent and for several years fucking Microsoft Windows has been the one actually innovating the UI/UX, and yes Linux far more so as always, but the Apple experience is still fairly solid.
So if we are talking about "parents", who may even own their own home b/c those things weren't fantasy way back in the day (when, no kidding, the government actually paid out socialist subsidies to encourage people to do just that; back before that ladder was yanked up for the rest of us), then for them cost might not be the overriding factor? Or some people may just be okay with paying the premium price to get the good stuff? Again that trackpad... hmm...:-) - if it were free I doubt you'd turn it away at least (b/c if nothing else you could put Linux onto it):-D.
Yes, I have used modern Macs. They are nice. They are not worth the money.
I have also done Apple support professionally, and I can tell you that it feels disgusting to have to sell somebody a several hundred dollar repair when you know they've just maxed their cards buying the device. It's awful, and it's how Apple makes most of their money.
I wouldn't even sell a homeowning millionaire a Mac because of the way Apple operates.
Modern ThinkPads rock. The ultrabooks are aluminum like a Mac without any of the proprietary bullshit and I can buy it for three hundred dollars with an abundance of replacement parts.
Yikes, that's... a good perspective. We all did not used to be this poor, especially with the expectation that it will never get any better, so I hope that my comment was not too terribly insensitive. Maybe I've led a charmed life - e.g. I've literally never had to repair any Mac device that I've ever worked with, mostly work machines but one in particular that I bought entirely on my own lasted a good 10+ years before it simply gave up one day (whereas another was stolen, etc.) - but yeah they definitely don't make them to be easily repairable, being made mostly out of like fucking glue or some such.
I would definitely sell a homeowning millionaire a Mac though - at that point they can afford whatever they want, so I'd happily take the cut:-).
And I would still hesitate to recommend Linux to an old person - if only for fear that I'd be stuck answering all their numerous requests for free tech support - but yeah I get you that it's a solid option, and a way more cost-effective one if that is the chief concern i.e. not a homeowning millionaire.:-D
Thank you for sharing your perspective.
That is a very good point. If the constraint was added that someone would need to purchase a new machine either way - their old one died lets say, and possibly they want to switch form factors from desktop to laptop or vice versa - then would it change your answer?
Trying to put Linux onto a new machine can involve literal horror stories, especially with a particular vendor of graphics cards (Nvidia) that seems to enjoy breaking things. And too many of the cool/special features that would "just work" on their machine if it were on an OS provided by the manufacturer - some neat-o keyboard buttons lets say - could take potentially hundreds of hours and ultimately writing your own driver coding to make it functional on Linux. Not always, obviously, but it can, whereas with a manufacturer-provided OS it is guaranteed to function right out of the box.
But yeah, getting a new Mac is something on the order of like $1000 USD, plus older machines have had more time for Linux drivers to have been written anyway, so cost and newness of the machine are definitely major factors.
Nope, MacOS would be too different for them to handle. Linux Mint, or something with KDE Plasma would be way better IMO.
I guess my argument would be that you can choose/configure Linux to use many of the Windows conventions, whereas Mac has its own way of doing things that need learning.
True... though Windows itself keeps changing things between major releases, so someone may feel that they need to learn a new interface either way, which lowers the barrier to such a switch-over. For myself I did not think it was that hard, but then again I came from Linux to Mac OSX so I am definitely not the average use-case:-P.
Anyway, good point.
First challenge would be trying to convince them to spend a ton of money for a computer that they only use to do basic web surfing.
Then there is the fact that MacOS is different than Windows in look and feel, so a larger learning curve, all to do what they've always done before. People don't like change, and the bigger the change, the more the pushback.
And in my parents case, they have already talked to other parents who's kids convinced them to get a Mac. And heard all the complaints and regrets of those other parents for buying a Mac, and how it will be their first and last Mac. (My mother needed help buying a new laptop a few months ago, so I know about this).
Okay but... will putting Linux on it be any better, in your view, or are you saying Windows or bust?
Could be good if they are willing to try, and you choose a distro that closely resembles Windows. And they aren't purchasing new hardware and their current Windows OS isn't being supported anymore.
Big fan of if it works, why change it?
Also, don't promise them that it'll be perfect and magical, set their expectations to be realistic. (This is where typically people convinced to buy a Mac quickly learn to hate it. They are promised it will never have problems and then they have one problem after another, leading to hating it and tired of having to message for more help. And a lot of people I've found that sing blind praises for anything are the same ones quick to blame and down talk users when things goes wrong)
Oh that's definitely true - if their existing machine works and they only want to get away from Windows then it's not even a question (putting Mac OSX onto a not-Mac hardware just isn't quite the same experience...:-P), definitely go with Linux then.
Yeah there is no OS in existence and never will be one that has zero issues, true dat. Windows included.