384
Outrage over ‘massacre’ in Gaza as Israel rescued four hostages
(www.theguardian.com)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 09 Jun 2024
384 points (92.3% liked)
News
23406 readers
2173 users here now
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Right, I didn't deny that happened. I think there's more to deciding linking to Turkish state media than CNN, like you're trying to legitimize a propaganda outlet (hence I said also). So you're not against holding hostages in combat free zones? Good! Who is that incumbent upon? Because I know who has direct control of those hostages.
None of that matters since Israel bombs "combat free zones".
Edit: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c299pl8j8w7o.amp
Can you cite where in that article your claim is substantiated?
Edit: Again, not saying it hasn't happened, but that article doesn't say that. And I think it does matter unless you can prove that Israel is purposefully targeting non combat zones with no inclination that Hamas is hiding there. Israel itself has attacked areas deemed non combat zones, mistakes I don't excuse, but this is by Hamas' design.
https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf
So then would you hold Israel to the same standard of using human shields that you do Hamas?
If so would you claim the Hamas attacks on the 7th were justified because they attacked settler towns like Be'eri, whose ideological purpose of existing this close to Gaza was specifically to create a civilian border (literal large scale human shield)?
Using civilians to protect any military objective (including the land you've settled by force) is appalling - but let's not pretend only one side is doing it.
If you really care about peace - petition your leaders for a one state solution where both Israelis and Palestinians (no matter their religion) are allowed to coexist and are equal in the eyes of the law and the people.
Yes, and this is all clear whataboutism. And lazy at that. So that means we both think Hamas should stop using civilians as human shields right? Sweet, tell me when they stop. And I'm gonna just ignore your attempt to equate Hamas charter with 11 points, that's just silly on its face :)
You accuse me of whataboutism then you just use it yourself.
Yes, I don't think Hamas should be using human shields but I also don't think Israel should be settling land even before the partitioning of Palestine. (I mean the idea of a foreign state partitioning land they don't inhabit is insane, but let's ignore that for the sake of argument)
How do you not see using civilian encampments as a makeshift human wall just as immoral?
And we can play the whole who started it first game as much as we want but it doesn't negate the fact that even after unfavorable borders for Palestine were established - settlers continued to take over land with the support of the IDF - where is the defense in burning homes and expelling Palestinians from land not even within the borders of Israel?? (oh but it was contested territory you see so that gives us the right to massacre people, yes I am very intelligent...)
Saying Hamas is the reason the IDF is killing civilians completely misses the history of the struggle - what's next the Nakba was also Hamas' fault then?
Sounds like the history is that Hamas held hostages in a refugee camp and that's dangerous for them. No other history involving anyone else legitimizes Hamas doing this.
And to address your accusation of whataboutism, I'll refer you to my original comment at the top of the chain and ask you what I started to discuss and who changed the topic. "So you would hold Israel to the same standards?" Is textbook whataboutism.
Edit: and I think using civilians as shields is worse. Much worse. End of debate.
I mean you came in swinging with the whole "but why is Hamas holding hostages in a refugee camp" line which is actual whataboutism when the thread is about the IDF killing over 200 people.
Why not ask why the IDF doesn't have procedures in place to prevent civilian casualties? Why not ask why is it impossible to send ground troops instead of carpet bombing Gaza? Why not ask why does Hamas exist in the first place? Is there a single thing you'll admit the IDF/Israel has done wrong that isn't somehow the fault of Hamas?
Your lack of humanity was already showing, but I didn't think you'd be so unable to retort that you'd just forfeit the debate..
No, I started a topic and you changed it. The article itself says there were hostages held in refugee camps. "Coming in swinging" is just... indicative. I'm ending this with you.
And there is NOTHING that excuses using civilians as shields. Stop trying to justify it.
I mean you could have asked why Israel attacks refugee camps in the first place (even before Hamas)?
Or do you think that atrocities like "women and children were stripped, lined up, photographed and then slaughtered by automatic fire" doesn't breed resentment? (not that Hamas didn't do the same on 7.11 but let's not pretend Israel isn't at least as complicit as Hamas in the overall conflict)
I'll admit using civilians as shields is indeed dreadful - but my main point is acknowledging that violence only breeds more violence and that the first step to preventing more deaths is dismantling the current terror state form of Israel, not killing more and more civilians as some form of extirpation..
I'll leave you with this - if there's no oppressor to rally against, what would give Hamas power?
All I see is you trying to garner understanding towards Hamas using civilians as shields. No history leads to this, Hamas is not forced to do this.