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this post was submitted on 16 Jun 2024
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The USA mainly sells Financial Services and Machinery. Making our own rubber ducks and flatpack furniture would be analogous to a lawyer painting his house when he could have made enough money to pay somebody else to paint it 5x over.
Unfortunately, much of our raw materials are imports so by disincentivizing other countries to trade with us we are killing our own manufacturing capabilities. That is exactly what happened when Trump era steel tariffs killed a large sector of American manufacturing. And he explicitly excluded Russian Steel where his good friend Aaron Abromovich was offering to supply steel for his stupid wall, until congress twisted his arm into signing the additional tariffs against Russia, just another example of how his actions are purely selfish.
At the end of the day, trade is both good and conditional. Other nations might see these actions as hostile and reduce the number of goods they're willing to sell, as they can't be the ones left holding the bag if trade suddenly stops one day and they've overproduced specialty goods with no use so reducing production is the clear choice, and there is less incentive to offer other less profitable goods as per trade agreements and less incentive to even make new trade agreements in the first place.
You cannot force American CEOs to want to produce goods in the states anymore than you can convince Chinese people to live in the districts where excess homes were built: governments do not have enough control to dictate the markets via anything but positive reinforcement.
It feels like this (common) argument it's trying to have is cake and eat it too, so maybe you can help me understand.
As you, and everyone, say: the financial burden of the teriffs are paid by the importer and passed to the consumer, rather than being paid by the exporting country or exporter - so what is the disincentive for those countries to continue trade with us? They'll see a decrease in demand, but is that really a disincentive? I don't understand how both of these things can be true and have the same cause, at the same time.
The problem is outsourcing, and teriffs are an attempt to make outsourcing less appealing. I understand your analogy, but that's the problem: we're encountering Goodhart's Law. We're optimizing for GDP, and you're right that's teriffs will result in lower optimization, but in chasing GDP numbers we've failed to consider where the money is getting allocated. The lawyer could save money by hiring foreigners, but hiring locals helps people in their community. (Not saying foreign workers are bad, just trying to reuse your analogy). I don't think we should get too preoccupied with economic efficiency, as long as we can ensure the waste stays domestic.
I'm not confident teriffs are actually a good idea, and even if they were I don't trust Trump to implement them. What I'm trying to do is push back and get clarification about why people are acting like teriffs are inherently bad.
I'm not trying to have the cake and eat it, I'm trying to convince people like you not to shit on the cake just because you think you might be able to eat around it.
What?
Why am I getting down votes?
How am I shitting on anything? What am I even shitting on? \
All I'm doing is asking "why do we shit on teriffs and treat them as inherently bad?"
Im trying to have a discussion in good faith, and rather than having any of my questions explained or answered I'm just down voted and vaguely demeaned.
I'm being very clear I do not support whatever shit trump is doing, I'm trying to understand why people just hate tariffs.
I don't understand how, if the importer bares all tariff costs, what would disincentivize a foreign nation from exporting to us since they bear no increased costs. Why would this not just appear as a decrease in demand, from their perspective?
I literally explained it to you in simple terms and you still argued against the facts.
Tariffs
Shit on
USA Commerce and Industry
They cannot ever be a replacement for taxation. Their uses are purely as a defence from foreign fuckery in the markets.
You didn't provide facts, you provided arguments and assertions.
Then I refuted one of your arguments showing how it is seemingly contradicted one of your assertions and asked for elaboration.
I don't understand where your hostility is coming from. I'm not even saying you're wrong, I'm pointing out arguments that don't appear (to me) to lead to your conclusion.
I absolutely don't refute that Trump's idea is a bad one. My question is more general than that.
The hostility is coming because of you advocating harm on a massive scale and refusing that you might be wrong. Also why you're getting those downvotes. Stop asking about Trump. I used Trump as an example, but we've explained to you that Tariffs are bad in general.
Ok, I see the problem; you're not reading my replies.
I have been bending over backwards to make it clear I'm not advocating anything in general, and that I don't support trump or his suggestion in specific.
You keep saying that you've explained tariffs in general, but most of what you've done is just assert they're bad and then claim that you've explained it, but if you haven't been reading my replies then of course you wouldn't have read the questions I've asked about the explanations you did provided
You think tariffs aren't that bad. That's your stance. I've explained to you that tariffs are bad, albeit sometimes necessary. There is no confusion here. You can't explain it, because you're wrong.
No, again.
I didn't make a stance, I didn't say they're not that bad. I asked why everyone immediately shit on them, and then I asked for more information when your examination seemed contradictory in one area.
You keep putting words in my mouth and getting angry at me for them.
You gave me a reasonable explanation at first, and then when I asked for clarification about a part that seemed contradictory to me, I was immediately met with anger, accusations, and a repeated claim that all my questions had been answered.
Someone else actually gave me a pretty decent answer, but then they deleted their reply before I could follow up with them 😢. It was more about posturing than about economics (although when governments posture, economics are always impacted)