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(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 16 Jun 2024
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i can easily agree with 90% of that. The remaining 10% needs asterisks pointing towards further nuanced discussion. I'll not specify which topics go into which category.
I also agree with most of that, but that doesn't make it OK to downvote opinions to the contrary for no other reason than "I disagree".
If comments of different perspectives, made in good faith get downvoted to oblivion then participation is discouraged, debate gets replaced with circle jerking and Lemmy becomes a very boring and out of touch echo chamber just like Reddit.
Downvotes should only be used for comments that are off topic, factually incorrect, hateful or made in bad faith etc.
So something like this comment: https://lemmy.ca/comment/9747509 Which equates not liking Elon Musk with hate groups against minorities?
Usually when people complain about something like "the Lemmy Narrative" they're usually not bringing nuanced discussion to their posts and are just upset that people aren't agreeing with their "hot takes."
That comment received 17 downvotes but the only person willing to reply deleted their comment.
The comment seems rather silly and I'd wager that the writer is making a satirical comment about the repetitive nature of Lemmy's narrative rather than legitimately equating people that dislike Musk to the Ku Klux Klan. If anyone was willing to engage the writer rather than just burying the comment then it's possible you may have seen that.
So the comment is silly and you argue about its interpretation. In other words it did not add anything productive to the conversation?
When I see someone with vague complaints about downvotes and no specific elaboration when pressed, that's a warning sign that they likely weren't engaging in productive dialog in the first place and want to blame "the hive mind" for no one liking their "hot take".
Not the responsibility of everyone else to try to engage to see if a commenter has a relevant taking point and coax it out of them. It's up to the commenter to make that clear in the first place.
Yes, some jokes are silly and that's why they're funny. Although jokes can be harmful, I don't think that this one was.
Are jokes productive for discussion or discourse? Not necessarily, but I'm not so precious that I'm going to downvote someone for making one.
I mean what's more likely here, a guy made a joke and a load of sensitive Lemmings downvoted them or a guy was literally comparing people that support Palestine with bigots?
I endorse the use of /s so that we can avoid this type of debate, but whenever you mention it you get a load of complaints.
Shit takes get downvoted. Rational disagreements don't.
If you define a "shit take" as a comment that is factually wrong and or harmful, that's fine and I've already said that. If your idea of a "shit take" is "I don't like / disagree with your opinion" then I hope you're fine with Lemmy becoming an out of touch echo chamber and I've also already said that. Why am I having to repeat myself?
It doesn't take much browsing here to see plenty of rational disagreements that have been downvoted for failing to conform with the groupthink.
How you think that people should use downvotes and how they actually use downvotes are two separate things.
If you don't like it, the solution is simple. You don't argue until you're blue in the face to get people to change. You remove downvotes.
Downvotes are a bad idea. We should have upvotes only.
That doesn't improve anything. I've been on sites with upvotes only and it doesn't lead to more productive discussions.
Often it results in more people posting low quality replies consisting of nothing more than "you're an idiot" because they cannot just downvote to indicate that. Meanwhile the person giving incorrect information feels bolstered by the 3 upvotes they have received that people agree with them, while ignoring the posts with 30 upvotes pointing out why they are incorrect.
...they presumably also cannot articulate their disagreement in any more naunced way than that, either.
Okay, so would you rather have them post their disagreement that they cannot articulate in a more nuanced way, or just downvote and not clutter up the feed?
I'd rather them think on it and actually articulate a position, but that's a high bar to ask for.
Right. Removing their downvote button isn't going to cause people to pause and reflect on their positions, so what benefit would it provide to an actual discussion?
If I'm having an actual discussion with someone I disagree with, I'd rather receive a bunch of downvotes from the peanut gallery and keep the messages to people who want to actually discuss, then have the entire peanut gallery flooding the responses with poor quality responses to indicate their disagreement.
Yes, it would be better if people gave more nuanced replies, but let's accept reality and the fact that not everybody is going to do that. Let's also accept that you aren't special and deserving of a long form point by point rebuttal from every single person who disagrees with you.
and become facebook? I'd rather not.
But you can downvote on Facebook. In fact, Facebook is worse because it has a range of emoticons you can use to show your disapproval and/or mockery. So, instead of merely making a number go down, you can actually post a laughing yellow face or a frowny yellow face.
I can agree to 80% but also disagree with 80%. None of those are simple cut and dry situations and a simple answer is naive at best. And, most importantly, I can say that without sitting on a fence
Couldn't have said it better myself. It's nuance that's almost entirely missing from much of online discussions. In my experience; the more I learn about a topic, the more I realize how much I don't know/how complex it is. Then there's also the fact that most simplistic and absolute statements are almost guranteed to be wrong. Not literally all cops are bad.
So why are you the one making simplistic absolute statements here? Are you just making a Strawman you can knock down?
What is this simplistic and absolute statement of mine that you're refering to here?
I think it's pretty accurate summary of the general attitude towards things here on Lemmy. In no way is it an absolute statement.
So much for trying to understand the nuance of opposing viewpoints.
You're just being snide here and not in any way explaining what is it that you disagree with me here exactly. There's plenty of people replying to that comment that they more or less agree with that summary. It's a generalization. Ofcourse it lacks nuance. That's the average attitude of a group, not any one individual.
Right, so no one has actually said that. You've invented an argument no one is making based on a generalization, and then patting yourself on the back for how well you've pointed out how bad the argument is (that you invented and no one actually made).
It's the definition of a straw man. You're not even twisting some one else's argument, you've invented one entirely on your own to knock down.
Like I said; it's the general attitude of Lemmings as a group. Not that of any individual. If you don't understand how averages work then I can't help you. The fact that you don't know anyone with 1.5 children doesn't mean it's not the average amount of kids of families with kids.
Straw man means misrepresenting someone's argument. It's called hollow man when you made up the argument entirely.
Did you look at the replies to that comment? Does that seem like people disagree with my post?