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Shit libertarians say.
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 03 Jul 2024
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Very sad when libertarians (i.e. republicans that are too cowardly to publicly own that they are republicans) get burned so bad and don't have a collectively funded community Fire Department or public roads where anyone could travel to put out the fire.
They aren't republicans. They are neofeusalists disguising as such. Republic just means representative democracy.
US republicans also aren't dictionary republicans
Agreed. That's what I said.
A true libertarian community would have a collectively funded Fire Department and publicly funded roads.
Libertarians do not want to pay "taxes". Taxes are a portion of your money the government forcefully takes and does whatever they want with.
Public services that a libertarian uses, they would feel like they would have to pay for.
Joe drives to work. He takes a toll road (not saying toll roads are a good solution). He pays for the road that he is using.
Steve rides the bus to work. His bus ticket will have the cost of the roads fixed in.
Joe doesn't want to lose everything in a fire. He gets insurance. Insurance company doesn't want to lose the whole house. They get a fire department.
Right now we pay 100% of the fire department in taxes. While paying full price for insurance. Insurance companies get to use the fire department for free.
The idea that giving up ~40% of your work in hopes that the government takes care of you is ridiculous (Social Security is a government ran ponzi scheme). The idea that giving up ~40% of your work in hopes that the government takes care of someone else is also ridiculous.
The government used every penny of taxes you have paid or ever will pay to not even make a dent in the bail out of privately owned banks. Hell, they probably handed Tom Brady more than that in just the PPP loans he received and never had to pay back.
But life can't function without government taxes /s
No taxation without representation. Do you feel represented?
The only thing I have to say is:
We had public water in our town.
A few years ago, a private company was created to take care of the water system and the distribution in our town and some towns around here.
Our bill has never been higher... Houses that were vacant (second homes, people that were in another country etc) received bills...not like a few euros...hundreds...
Private companies have to make more money...year after year...the line always goes up. And although it is a private company and they take every penny they can, they also receive state money and European funds...
We, like other people, are in debt to them now. Because they send us bills like we run a public pool.
"Because on top of your bill, you have to pay for leaks."
"But people from your company already came to see if there was any...and there isn't..."
"It doesn't matter, your are paying for us to fix the system"
But they already went up in the price per L....Aaaaaand received municipal, state and European funds....
Capitalism will kill us. Their greed and the blindness/complacency of people like you.
In Europe? I hope you will fix it soon. If such things start to happen in Europe, it is scary.
Libertarianism has nothing to do with private vs. public companies. Libertarians are not pushing for only private companies.
Libertarians are for Free Market, but that doesn't mean only private companies.
Say you're paying 10 cents per gallon of water from a private company. If the government can do it and charge you 5 cents per gallon that's what should happen in a "Free Market"
What's not good is when the government charges you 15 cents a gallon and a private company can do it for 10 cents but is blocked from doing it because it's not a "Free market".
If we said USPS is the only mail carrier. UPS or FedEx can't exist and you've got to pay whatever USPS wants to charge. That's not a free market. Same as saying USPS can't exist because UPS and FedEx control the sector. Not free.
In your example it sounds like the government was losing a lot of money with the public water and instead of them charging more and trying to fix everything they just gave up and passed it off to a private company. It's less that the private company is trying to milk you for all your money but "we don't have thousands of taxpayers to subsidize our expenses and inflation exists"
Imagine being happy paying taxes just so your local government can get rid of your public water. They probably increased local taxes to pay for all the public water infrastructure. Are they going to decrease your local taxes now that they aren't supplying you that service? Your local government screwed you, but you see the new company trying to supply you water as the bad guys.
Except libertarians will run in circles and yell "Goverment intervention!".
Example, please? If you will try licensing as example, here's explaination: in terms of wild capitalism(AKA "free market") licensing is allowing to use franchise undrr certain condition.
Except it was already clearly stated that they did receive subsidies.
Or in other words...
I was shooting heroin and reading “The Fountainhead” in the front seat of my privately owned police cruiser when a call came in. I put a quarter in the radio to activate it. It was the chief. “Bad news, detective. We got a situation.” “What? Is the mayor trying to ban trans fats again?” “Worse. Somebody just stole four hundred and forty-seven million dollars’ worth of bitcoins.” The heroin needle practically fell out of my arm. “What kind of monster would do something like that? Bitcoins are the ultimate currency: virtual, anonymous, stateless. They represent true economic freedom, not subject to arbitrary manipulation by any government. Do we have any leads?” “Not yet. But mark my words: we’re going to figure out who did this and we’re going to take them down … provided someone pays us a fair market rate to do so.” “Easy, chief,” I said. “Any rate the market offers is, by definition, fair.” He laughed. “That’s why you’re the best I got, Lisowski. Now you get out there and find those bitcoins.” “Don’t worry,” I said. “I’m on it.” I put a quarter in the siren. Ten minutes later, I was on the scene. It was a normal office building, strangled on all sides by public sidewalks. I hopped over them and went inside. “Home Depot™ Presents the Police!®” I said, flashing my badge and my gun and a small picture of Ron Paul. “Nobody move unless you want to!” They didn’t. “Now, which one of you punks is going to pay me to investigate this crime?” No one spoke up. “Come on,” I said. “Don’t you all understand that the protection of private property is the foundation of all personal liberty?” It didn’t seem like they did. “Seriously, guys. Without a strong economic motivator, I’m just going to stand here and not solve this case. Cash is fine, but I prefer being paid in gold bullion or autographed Penn Jillette posters.” Nothing. These people were stonewalling me. It almost seemed like they didn’t care that a fortune in computer money invented to buy drugs was missing. I figured I could wait them out. I lit several cigarettes indoors. A pregnant lady coughed, and I told her that secondhand smoke is a myth. Just then, a man in glasses made a break for it. “Subway™ Eat Fresh and Freeze, Scumbag!®” I yelled. Too late. He was already out the front door. I went after him. “Stop right there!” I yelled as I ran. He was faster than me because I always try to avoid stepping on public sidewalks. Our country needs a private-sidewalk voucher system, but, thanks to the incestuous interplay between our corrupt federal government and the public-sidewalk lobby, it will never happen. I was losing him. “Listen, I’ll pay you to stop!” I yelled. “What would you consider an appropriate price point for stopping? I’ll offer you a thirteenth of an ounce of gold and a gently worn ‘Bob Barr ‘08’ extra-large long-sleeved men’s T-shirt!” He turned. In his hand was a revolver that the Constitution said he had every right to own. He fired at me and missed. I pulled my own gun, put a quarter in it, and fired back. The bullet lodged in a U.S.P.S. mailbox less than a foot from his head. I shot the mailbox again, on purpose. “All right, all right!” the man yelled, throwing down his weapon. “I give up, cop! I confess: I took the bitcoins.” “Why’d you do it?” I asked, as I slapped a pair of Oikos™ Greek Yogurt Presents Handcuffs® on the guy. “Because I was afraid.” “Afraid?” “Afraid of an economic future free from the pernicious meddling of central bankers,” he said. “I’m a central banker.” I wanted to coldcock the guy. Years ago, a central banker killed my partner. Instead, I shook my head. “Let this be a message to all your central-banker friends out on the street,” I said. “No matter how many bitcoins you steal, you’ll never take away the dream of an open society based on the principles of personal and economic freedom.” He nodded, because he knew I was right. Then he swiped his credit card to pay me for arresting him.
Except bitcoins aren't anonymous
This is the best thing I've read all week.
This is an actual example of what a libertarian town looks like.
https://washingtonmonthly.com/2020/08/30/libertarians-took-control-of-this-small-town-it-didnt-end-well/
This is an actual example of what a socialist town looks like.
https://www.maciverinstitute.com/2020/02/the-failed-socialist-state-in-midwestern-america/
Okay? Do you have a need to pretend that I care about some Conservative Thinktank's views on some rich asshole's little project town in the 1800s? I mean, it's blatant propaganda, not even pretending to be a news site.
Or maybe they are, I don't care either way.
Also, a rich asshole cannot, by definition, be part of a socialist anything. Not if words have real meanings.
Some people left trash out, some bears came to town, so libertarian ideas are all bad. Yep makes sense.
You can look up New Harmony indiana if you'd like to find a more credible resource. That's just google's top result. It did happen.
Why am I going to go to work today to save lives in the emergency room if I got paid like everyone else? I had to go to years of schooling, my job is very stressful. Someone working making a hamburger should get the same wages as me?
It makes sense that a fully socialist society would fail. Even if it has a rich asshole trying to fund it. But you're right that's not truly socialism and if it couldn't work with injected funds from a rich asshole, it's going to work without it?
Too much of a good thing can be bad, just like in both examples.
It wasn't just "Some people left trash out and some bears came to town"
It was "Libertarians cut funding for trash service and any other essential government service and made the town unsafe, and also a fuck load of bears started living in town because of it"
Saner heads eventually took over and told the overgrown children to fuck off, and now the town funds basic services again.
As to your weird obsession with making me socialist because I think libertarians have about as much sense as an elderly house cat, complete with kitty dementia, well, keep after if it makes you happy.
Lol you're funny
At least "failed socialist state" somewhere in Europe and Asia left us with UHC and increased literacy rate from 5% to 100%. What did those wild capitalism experiments left?
If at first you don't succeed, give up and never try again.
Not saying the current system is good, but replacing it with a "libertarian utopia" will be even worse. At least the system does the bare minimum work, we do have roads, we do have medical care, we do have trash pickup. It's not much but it's enough for most people so you would have to do a lot better to convince people why they should topple their comfort and pleasures.
It all sounds like it makes sense but it's not realistic. Rapidly we will end up in a situation where you have pass through 200 different forms of toll/fee collection to get to work, because without strict regulation of all companies, both public and private, they are going to exploit your lack of options. I haven't had anyone explain to me why we should expect a society of hundreds of millions of people to all suddenly be able to say "That's enough, line doesn't need to go up anymore." It's not how humans function.
You would need a central authority that would audit and review all these "fees" that pay for our roads and medical care and fire departments, and make sure they are allocated where they're supposed to go. And if we're doing that, why not just send the money to this central authority to begin with so there's no hiding shit? And now guess what we have. We have the system we have because it's how things evolve.
Our argument isn't that we should do away with a central authority that distributes our work, it should be that we want that work to pay for things we actually want, not the things that a few defense contractors and banks want. I don't want to do away with government, I want one that makes less self-interested decisions with the money we lend them. And so far all the alternatives save one or two, they just make it easier for these people to make self-interested decisions.
Liberterian utopia is giving power to corporations and taking freedoms from individuals. You want to go here? Too bad you don't have money to pay. You collectively don't want to pay? Tyranny! Central authority!
Imagine a world where corporations that aren't even involved in your life can decide where you can and can't go, where you can and can't live, if you can receive medical care or not, what you can and can't eat, and so on. If we can break every aspect of society down to a system of "fees" to have basic services, we will rapidly have an entire nation of shanty towns, with about 0.1% of the population living in fucking castles on the mountains.
And this is what they want. Because the people pushing this tripe always think they're the ones who will live in the castles.
Works in Europe. If you get sick or disabled(permanently sick), goverment will pay you.
Maybe get rid of insurance then?
Idealism? check
False dichotomy between said idealism and cherry picked reality? check
Mistakes avoided by anyone with a mental age over 16.
Boo fucking hoo a small portion of "your" money goes to keeping your neighbors' houses from burning down.
Also, you think most people are out there paying 40% in taxes? You either live in Scandinavia or you've never had a job before.
Lastly, "No taxation without representation?" Who says? A bunch of selfish, greedy, white, landowning, people-owning assholes hundreds of years ago? Fuck them. Taxes are a part of society.
The average person makes 65k in the US
They would pay 10k in federal income tax (15.4%)
They would pay 4k in social security (6.2%)
They would pay 2.6k in state income tax (~4%)
So out of the 65k, they get to keep 48.4k
Business would pay 4k in social security for you (6.2%)
With: Get paid 65k, walk home with 48.4k
Without: Get paid 69k, walk home with 69k.
69k - 48.4k = 20.2k
20.2k ÷ 69k = .29
Without federal/state/SS tax, the average person would have 30% more
Sales tax is ~5%
48.4k × 5% = 2.4k
If they used all their money to buy stuff, their actual purchasing power would be. They'd only have 46k to spend.
69k - 46k = 23k
23k ÷ 69k = .33
Average person gets to spend about 66% of their "actual pay"
I'd call that ~40%
65k - 48.4k = 16.6k
Let's assume 20 years old and retire at 67
47 years of working
S&P500 has had an average annual rate of return of 10% since being created in 1957.
Let's say 5% APR because 10% is realistic, but it's not guaranteed.
Extra 16.6k a year is about 1.4k per month.
If someone invested 1.4k per month for 47 years at 5%, interest compounded annually.
They would have 3 million in a retirement fund. (10% is 14.6m)
A 30-year mortgage is currently 7.5%. You could put the 1.4k a month into that and basically get a 7.5% guaranteed return.
Making 65k, walking home with 48.4k. Having to spend an extra 2.4k If you want to buy anything with the 48.4k because you really can only buy 46k worth of stuff. While giving up a 3m-14.6m retirement fund.
That's a "small portion"?
This isn't even counting health insurance. You make 65k the government isn't helping you out.
This is also not counting property tax.
You're giving up 1.4k a month so the government can give you 1.4k a month (hopefully) when you turn 67.
The government uses your potential 3m-14.6m for its own needs in the meantime
A functioning true libertarian community is a collection of co-ops, with a member owned insurance + investment company in the center replacing taxes and gov spending and driving regulatory decisionmaking.
I've never seen anybody successfully build it IRL and keep it working, but feel free to try.
But the cruise ship, bro?