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Ocasio-Cortez Loses the Democratic Socialists’ Endorsement Over Israel
(www.nytimes.com)
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this post was submitted on 14 Jul 2024
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And for others Biden is already that Hitler style Genocidal authoritarian.
Demanding to not support Genocide is not a big ask. If Democrats are not even willing to abide by that they don't believe in that 2025 talk as much as they claim.
Your definition of Hitler is clearly very different from my definition of Hitler
When I think of the bad things Hitler did it was the Genocide that bothered me more than his dictatorship.
I will say, the instant Biden puts 6 million civilians to death and starts a war that kills 70 million people I'm definitely planning not to vote for him.
Or!
I know, when people write books about fascism they write about all the weapons Hitler sold to other countries and how that was the real problem and what those other countries did with the weapons. Everyone knows such a thing was un heard of before Hitler, and now under Biden, it's coming again. There are whole museums devoted to Hitler's weapons sales.
Or!
I know... some of the holocaust survivors who were alive in 2016 had these sort of chilling interviews where they talked about the eerie similarities between Biden and Hitler and how they really hoped people would realize how important it was not to vote for Biden. They didn't really put a lot of attention into who his opponent was, because they said that's not the point.
Take your pick, this one is a choose your own adventure
Wheres your red line between directly causing 6 million deaths and heavily funding and even sending airplanes to people who have killed 20k women and children. Because if one thinks its only genocide if you're directly ordering the death of 6 million, you're going to miss a lot of genocides that are clearly happening.
How about Russia and Ukraine? By the tone of your comment Id asusme that wouldn't qualify to you either. So how far is to far? Or it is literally anything less than 6 million isn't it?
Russia is currently committing genocide in Ukraine.
China is supporting Russia's war in Ukraine, but that does not make them genocidaires themselves. It means they bear some guilt by proxy for continuing to support Russia despite its genocidal behavior, but that is distinctly not the same as being genocidaires themselves (on the issue of Ukraine, I mean, obvious the Uyghur Genocide is ongoing by the CCP). They bear guilt for supplying genocidaires.
Likewise, Israel is currently committing genocide in Palestine. The US is supporting Israel's war in Palestine, which is inexcusable and a black mark on the souls of everyone who has endorsed it and will remain a shame for the rest of our existence, but are not genocidaires ourselves (on the issue of Palestine). We bear guilt for supplying genocidaires.
I can understand the distinction you're making and by no means do I think a US citizen somehow bears more responsibility than IDF of their leaders. But at the end of the day actual money and value I spent my labor to create is being used to materially support the artillery of a nation I consider to be engaged in genocide or at least ethnic cleansing and no part of that will ever sit right with me. I understand Trump is worse, I understand this is how the US has treated Palestine since forever, but to me that means there's no reason for me to pledge and signal that I'm gonna vote Biden no matter what. I want them to know that if they get my vote it will be just barely and something they need to earn every damn election. It's literally the least I can do while I'm partially funding a genocide. I will stay undecided until the ballots in the damn scanner.
And at the end of the day I don't even live in a swing state. So even if my little way of protest has no impact, it's likely because my vote had no impact in the first place. At least my senators know Im pissed at them. Resent the letters I sent when the Sheikh Jara incident happened and said if they had at least tried to hold Israel accountable they wouldn't be so emboldened to indiscriminately kill.
Oh, okay, and the Ukrainians that are going to be subjected to genocide when Trump gets into office? Do they get the 'literal least you can do', or is it only Palestinians which get that, and Ukrainians need to 'earn' your vote for Biden too?
What we're doing is horrible. Regardless of guilt, however, there is no realistic situation in which a Dem ticket in November losing is anything but catastrophic for everyone, Palestinians included. There's not a question of 'earning' anything. It's not a game, Biden is not a player or a stripper. It's a question of what will happen after one of the two options get into office - supplying Israel while wagging our finger impotently; or giving Israel everything they ask for, Ukraine being genocided, and American minorities being subjected to horrific conditions, very likely including our very own genocide?
If you're undecided at all between those two outcomes... I have nothing I can say to you, except that you had better fucking not ever claim you 'support' democracy, the rights of minorities in the US, or the right of a people to resist genocide again. All you oppose is feeling bad about your government's budget, and want to absolve yourself of the responsibility that comes with being a citizen in a somewhat democratic polity.
The Ukrainians are being subjected to genocide now, they don't need to wait for Trump. You said that yourself. They also have Tanks, Planes, and working Hospitals. Does Palestine? The types of genocide aren't even the same, Russias kidnapping and Russifying, Israel is killing and clearing land. Seems tough to compare to me.
Do you understand what Trump has proposed for Ukraine? I ask that unironically, I know I'm pissy and short on this topic, but I'm genuinely asking here.
How many tanks and planes do you think will help the Palestinian cause at this junction?
Don't worry about the hospitals, Russia is working on that too
Leave NATO and take the funding with us and undo Sanctions, is all I'm aware of. Which is a lot, but I can only stand even reading about him so much so I don't exactly search it out often.
That alone would be enough to ensure a Ukrainian genocide - Zelenskyy having openly said that they cannot win the war without American materiel - but Trump has also praised Putin as a 'genius' for invading Ukraine and proposed giving up Ukrainian land to Russia as part of a peace deal forced on Ukraine. How many more Buchas do we want, here? Man, I'm fucking tired of seeing videos of Ukrainian civilians maimed, shot, tortured, I'm tired of reading UN reports of widespread human rights abuses in the occupied territories and colonization by ethnic Russians, I'm tired of Russia outright bragging about how many children it has kidnapped from the occupied territories.
"Let's keep that going, without resistance, until Russia is satisfied" is a resolution even more ridiculous than the US position on Palestine, and the US position on Palestine is already pretty fucking ridiculous.
If you think Israel's ethnic cleansing goals and Russia's are fundamentally different, you haven't been paying attention, man. Whether they're hawking beachfront property in Mariupol or Gaza, whether they're selling that property to Russian oligarchs or Israeli oligarchs, whether their plan is to deport hundreds of thousands, at minimum, to satisfy their territorial desires in Gaza or the Donbass? It's the fucking same. Palestinian conventional resistance is just further collapsed than Ukraine's.
It’s actually a really good question. I think every iteration of US foreign policy I’ve been alive for has been horrific. I think a good way is, once it’s reduced to a choice between 2 options, pick the one that’s less bad if there is a massive visible difference (as there is in this election). And then, also, exercise pressure to push the less-bad option to be better (the uncommitted vote, calling and opposing aid for Israel, pushing in future primaries for candidates that are less bad).
Trying to push for better than Biden’s current standard I think is a great idea. The only part I object to is risking letting things get 10 times worse because of a pointless grandstanding gesture, while pretending that you’re helping.
Ukraine I definitely think we should send help to also, yes, and more than we have.
It’s not a matter of “this is where my line for something being bad,” it’s just that once it’s down to 2 options, you can pick the one that’s less bad and will save a bunch of lives instead of waiting for the US government to start having an enlightened foreign policy all of a sudden by magic, and then getting involved.