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The Best Counter to Project 2025 Is a Progressive Project 2025
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this post was submitted on 20 Jul 2024
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Embracing the right hasn't netted them anything and they keep doing it.
I vote every time. Don't lecture me for being unhappy just because you've got the genocide and border policy you want. Centrists blame the left they deliberately alienate for any losses, while courting Republicans who will never vote for them. They interpret any win as a mandate to move to the right.
Left leaning here, dunno about you, but run channels with other left leaning progressives. I'm on a border between two states, I make it a point that my state when state/local stuff comes up, I get the news out, I get the word out, I try to drum up voting. Anyone in the other state, a massive collective 'meh'. Same comes with the local votes.
"But Bernie" is the cry.
Voting isn't just about the damn presidency. It's a shit slog from the lowest levels all the way up and all the crowd I know in the left leaning can't be faffed to show up for anything local so of course it's going to be centrist on the top. The reason the right wing has so much power is they've made it a point since the Reagan era that anyone without an (R) after their name WILL NOT run uncontested even it if it's a superintendent to a school.
Yes, the Democrats are run by centrists because that's who shows up to all the elections no matter how small or petty, but the lefts show up at Presidential elections and whinge about how nothing changes.
I hope I'm preaching to the choir when it comes to voting on the small elections, but unless you're in a very different place than I am, if you did you'd pretty quickly notice you're the rare leftist there.
It's the center. And they do win elections when they go to the center. That's Bill Clinton won, even Obama had to run on vague "hope", and that's how Biden won. Because the left never shows up to vote
Who said I'm centrist? I'm just saying that's where they find voters and that's where they win.
May I remind you that Dems have had all 3 of house of representatives, Senate, and presidency for only 4 of the last 24 years? They basically never win.
They win by moving to the center and basically never win. Got it.
You can look at this way: When they go left, they lose. Because the left doesn't show up. So they go center and win occasionally. As in, they win more often when they go center. So the math is clear, go center. You know this, but you want to obfuscate.
They don't go left at all. You just blame the left when they go to the right like you want and it fails.
Let's pull up the history, I have this saved because I have to go over it with people:
Let's run through the recent story.
Bill Clinton: After successive losses Bill figured out "it's the economy stupid". And when you run against an incumbent (Bush senior) you run from the center. So that's what he did. And he won.
Gore: After the population hopefully warmed up with Bill Clinton, he stuck his head out left with climate change. And bam he lost the election. Thanks 3rd party protest voters!
Obama: So guess what Obama learned? Don't stick your head out. He ran on vague "hope", hoping the ambiguity would be enough considering Bush's disastrous wars. And he won.
Hillary Clinton: After the population hopefully warmed up with Obama, she stuck her head out just a tiny itty little bit left on climate change (that thing all the leftists care about right?) with the Map Room. And guess what happened? Bam she lost. Thanks protest non-voters!
On to Biden. Just like Obama learned from Gore, Biden learned from Hillary that you don't stick your head out left. And he was running against an incumbent, so once again when you do that you run center. He's actually been governing more from the left, but he ran center.
And people are amazed that they don't run an big left platform? Every time they stick their head out a little itsy bitsy tiny bit left they lose. And the next guy learns to go to the center to win.
Like I said.
So how do you get them to move left? By giving them victories. Consistent and overwhelming victories. Because when they lose, like they've lost 20 years out of the last 24 years, they will go to the center to find votes.
Blaming Hillary's loss on one progressive idea instead of the millions of other reasons people had to not vote for her is just straight up head-in-the-sand insane.
Al Gore got straight up robbed by the SC, but even ignoring that let's not forget that was 24 years ago and climate action was wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy less popular than it is now. Let's also not forget he won the popular vote.
Trump must have lost in 2020 because he was too far to the left.
You're gonna blame the left because the Supreme Court robbed us all. Of course, you're gonna blame the left for any losses, no matter how much you have to lie about history to do so.
Obama ran to Clinton's left. He had specific policies regarding healthcare, Gitmo, the environment, Roe v Wade. Americans told Clinton to take a fucking hike and went with the guy to her left. Obama won despite the efforts of Centrists. Centrists were so upset that the party nominated someone to their left that they formed a PAC to elect McCain. They failed.
Clinton did everything in her power to alienate the left. Holy shit, you're saying Clinton lost because she wasn't far enough to the right. She might not be far enough to the right for you, but I doubt anyone will ever be.
Gore: If the election wasn't so close, then we wouldn't have needed recounts huh? Thanks 3rd party voters!
Obama: So you're talking the primary? I'm talking the general. The message to the voters was very vague "hope" and relying on energy. And after Bush's disastrous wars it didn't take much to win against the GOP, people were sick of the lies.
AND how long did Obama win? He won for years 1 and 2. Then for years 3 and 4 he lost the house of reps. Again for years 5 and 6 he lost the house of reps. And for years 7 and 8, he lost BOTH the house of reps and senate. That was his thanks for the ACA huh. Thanks voters that can't be assed to show up for elections!
Hilary: I'm saying she lost because the left didn't show up to vote. Thanks no vote protesters! They thought it would move things left by not voting, but in reality the overton window went off the cliff to the right by letting Trump win. How'd that work out?
So that's why Biden ran on center. He learned from Hillary. And when running against an incumbent you run center.
So back to my message. How do you get things to move left? You do that by giving Dems consistent and overwhelming victories. Because when they lose, they go to the center to find voters.
The left "doesn't show up" when Dems go right BECAUSE THERE'S NO ONE TO VOTE FOR ON THE LEFT. If the Dems would go left, and not 'tiny little peak out from behind big oil money' left, but full blown 'here's the progressive version of project 2025 and we're going to FIGHT hard for it, even if it means ditching some of our conservative members' left, then millennials and zoomers would show up. Millennials and zoomers are overwhelmingly progressive and they show up in greater numbers than any generation before them at their age... and that's WITHOUT ever having had someone on the left to actually vote for.
Sigh. That's what I'm saying. If you want a big left platform, then you have to vote for the small left platform first. No one is going to run a big left platform when the small left platform loses time and time again. Not going to happen. When the small left platform loses, they will go to the center to find voters.
And if you think you can play Mexican standoff and wait for the big left platform, I have news for you. You won't win. They will write you off as a voter and court the voters that actually show up, which is the center voter.
Nah... Soon someone will come forward with a big left platform, and this time Clinton and her minions won't be there to rig the primary. The DNC will have more and more young people and when the time comes they will shift the whole party dramatically to the left. The boomers will finally be the minority and we'll get an actual left party.
You're talking the primary and I'm talking the general. And every time they stick their head left (in the general) they lose.
I already gave you the history in a different chain, you can't plead ignorance on this. You want them to shift left? They have to win first.
Young, old, doesn't really matter. They will run what they think will win the general. Young does not mean they will run a left platform just because young. Old does not mean they will run center just because old. They will run what will win the general. And history shows the left never shows up to vote. It's the definition of insanity all over again.
Bernie would have crushed Trump. Millions of young people who stayed home or voted 3rd party would have turned out for him. Everyone who voted for Clinton also would have shown up for him because they were voting against Trump anyway. Blue no matter who right?
When most of the boomers are gone the vast majority of people will be progressive. The only way to win will be to go left and it'll be obvious sooner or later.
I already said it, you're talking the primary and I'm talking the general. Who knows what would have happened with Bernie vs Trump.
What will make it obvious to go left is, drumroll please, wins at the ballot box! You have to win before the party will make a big left platform. You're back to hoping for a big left platform to magically appear.
Yeah like I said before, you're relying on polling (and frankly hopes and dreams), and I'm relying on what actually happened. I think your dreams about Bernie vs Trump show this.
Right... They basically never win... So maybe they should try a different strategy because going for the right isn't working... Clearly they aren't finding the votes there. Clinton was a different time before millennials and zoomers could vote. Obama got 10 million "extra" people to actually show up and vote... And you know what? They didn't come from the center.
Except going to the center does win. it's basically the only wins they get.
Ok history lesson. Let's just do the whole thing.
After successive loses, Bill Clinton figured out "it's the economy stupid". Pretty centrist platform, and he won.
Gore: After the population hopefully warmed up with Bill Clinton, Gore stuck his head left. And bam, he lost the election. Yup, that's what happened.
So Obama learned from Gore to not stick your head out. He ran on vague "hope" and unity, thinking that after Bush's disastrous wars that would be enough. Personally I think practically anyone could have won against the GOP after those wars. People really wanted to move on after that.
Might as well round it out. So after the population hopefully warmed up with Obama, Hillary stuck her head a tiny bit left with the Map Room to fight climate change (the supposed big important issue for the left, right?). And bam. she lost the election.
So what did Biden learn from Hilary? Don't stick your head left. And when running against an incumbent you run from the center. So that's what he did, and that's how he won. He's governing more from the left, but he ran center.
What's that definition of insanity, doing the same thing twice and expecting different results. That's basically what you think they're going to do. Every time they go a bit left they lose, it'd be an act of insanity to go left and expect to win. Different strategy is correct, and that different strategy is to go to the center, which is where they finally win.
Let me try to explain an alternative view of the history you present: Clinton and Gore were before millennials could vote, let alone zoomers... So yes, maybe back then going center was the correct move. However, both of these generations are overwhelmingly progressive (particularly economically, ie tax the rich out of existence) The first chance millennials really got to vote they showed up for Obama. 10 million "extra" voters that year... They didn't come from the center full of people who always vote, they came from the young left full of people who had never voted but were excited by Obama's progressive message... Sadly he was a full of shit shill working for the oligarchy just like the rest of them, but millennials were new and didn't realize that.
Next, the new generations went all in for Bernie, also far more progressive than most of the DNC, but Clinton2 had rigged the primary. So instead of allowing for someone people were actually excited about, she decided it was her turn and in her hubris and arrogance cost us all 4 years of Trump. Even if she did stick her pinky toe out a little left, she was competing (in the minds of the young progressive generations) with someone who was truly left and was willing to fight the oligarchy. Clinton refused to even acknowledge the distorting role money plays in politics. She and her minions spat in young progressive's faces in order to chase the right and then were somehow surprised they didn't show up to vote for her. Then, Trump was so horrible, that enough people held their noses and voted for Biden. Maybe, some of those people were Republicans who preferred him to Trump, but I'd bet he can thank young people for his win more than Republicans crossing over. And for both Clinton2 and Biden we were told "just vote now and fix the system when we're safe" and both times it was bullshit. They never intended to fix the system, because the oligarchy likes it the way it is, and they work for the oligarchy. Now, millennials are all grown up, and zoomers are mostly voting age. They are overwhelmingly progressive and want a candidate who will truly fight the oligarchy, not take bribes from it. And this election they will equal or outnumber the boomers and older generations, but still, the DNC chooses to run to the right... To ignore half the population because they are young, or because most of the DNC is so old they don't even realize they are outnumbered. A strong anti oligarchy Bernie type candidate would see such overwhelming turnout from the young progressive generations that I honestly believe it could be the end of the 2 oligarchy parties forever. Which is why they'll push to the right until the very last Boomer dies, and the next generations can replace them with a better system.
Funny thing about generations, they tend to change as they age. Will millenials be any different? Time will tell.
They showed up the first time, so year 1 and 2. Then for Obama year 3 and 4 he lost the house of reps. Then again for years 5 and 6 he lost the house of reps. Then he lost both the house of reps and the senate for years 7 and 8. Thanks voters that can't be assed to show up! So what happened? Left voters never (or rarely if you reallllly need it) show up.
And this was with even more millenials getting the vote throughout Obama's term. And. They. Didn't. Show. Up.
So what happens when you don't have all 3 houses? Congress is what has control, not the president. So Dems have to reach across the aisle. And that's what they had to do for 6 out of 8 years. Because, wait for it, the left didn't show up. And you're amazed that they had to reach across the aisle and nothing much came out of 6 years?
And to further the point, they even shut down the government under obama. Congress has control.
So what did Hillary learn from Obama? She learned that the thanks for the ACA was losing control. Thanks left voters that don't show up! You think she's going to run a big left platform after they just lost 6 out of 8 years? The answer is no. She needs all 3 and she knows that. The GOP has now become obstructionist and she needs all 3 to pass anything. So on many items she runs center, but with a itsy bitsy left to the supposed big important issue to the left. Can't make too much of a stink about it or the right will go full blast on it, but the message to the left was clear. This is the big issue for the left, right? And for the young people, right? And for the future, right? This was the big impact, move the needle issue that intelligent people should have been all for, right? And bam she lost the election. Thanks no vote protesters! (And can't forget the voters in years 3-8 of Obama that taught her left doesn't win.)
Two ways you can look at this. 1) He appealed to center voters, and that's what he got, and that's why he won. That's what I think happened. But if you want to run on 2) the left showed up, then hey look what's possible when the left shows up! But the lesson they learned was they win when they go center.
Now imagine what would happen if that happened every single election, every single midterm. Yeah the whole Dem party could and would move left. That's what I'm saying.
The only issue is that they have to win first, and then they can go left. They won't go left just because, out of the blue, for no reason. Because history, as I've run through a second time, show the left never shows up.
Fix the system? We all know we can't fix the electoral college or the senate. Maybe the House of reps, but that's only 1 of 3 that Dems need.
Great. Vote first, give the Dems consistent and overwhelming victories in presidential and midterms, and then the party will cater to you. Because the history, as gone over twice, shows the left doesn't show up.
We'll see if anything changes now that Biden drops out, but when he ran in he was running against the incumbent and when you do that you run center. And then you (usually) have that candidate for 8 years.
As for now, I doubt anyone will take the chance on letting Trump win and democracy ending, so I expect the new nominee will run center. And then maybe Trump will run again in 2028, so guess what you get another center. And then maybe Trump impersonee 2032, so again maybe no chances and center. Etc, etc. These things don't change nearly as quickly as you want them to. All because, wait for it, left voters never showed up in 2016 (and 2014, and 2012, and 2010). Plenty of millenials and even Gen Z in 2016, and they didn't show up. That was the trajectory that was decided in 2016, and momentum's a bitch.
You know what the core of this is? You are relying on, essentially, polling data on what left young people want. And I am relying on who turns out to vote. You can say "we want this" until the cows come home, it does not matter when. voters. don't. show. up. And you're not going to win a mexican standoff waiting for a big left platform. They will simply go to the center voter.
Progressives aren't Democrats. Do people get mad at conservatives for not voting for Democrats? Why would anyone show up to vote when there's no candidate representing them? They didn't show up for Obama midterms because Obama turned out to be the same old same and they figured it out quickly. Let alone all the shills that would have been running. Give them someone to vote for and they'll show up. Continue to go after an ever shrinking center and continue to lose until all the boomers are dead and then it won't matter anyway.
I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I think we're just going to end up having to agree to disagree... It would be nice if the boomers came left to start setting up the next generations for success, but whether they do or don't, they are on their way out, and progressives will inherit the party sooner or later.
If progressives want the government/society/the overton window to progress, then they have to vote for Dems and give them consistent and overwhelming victories. That's about it.
They didn't show up for Obama after he passed the most progressive healthcare bill in his first 2 years. Yeah that's not a thing to be proud of. What did that get them? Drumroll please, it got them 6 years of Obama not being able to do anything else. Way to take anything else progressive Obama may have done and flush it down the toilet! And what else did it get them? Drumroll please, a mostly center Hilary who knew they didn't show up. And what else did it get them? Trump. Yeah. And what else did it get them? A center Biden. Way to own yourself progressives. Like that the biggest self own in history. And you wonder why the Dems go the center to find votes? lol. This is why I said: If progressives want the government/society/the overton window to progress, then they have to vote for Dems and give them consistent and overwhelming victories.
Agree to disagree? I'm going to take that mean you now understand the history that I laid out and why they keep going to the center to find votes. Because left voters never show up.
You can't play mexican standoff and expect to win. Dems will just go after voters that actually show up.