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this post was submitted on 01 Aug 2024
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They're all Emmanuel Goldstein during the two minute hate.
Yes, Immers is the same as Emmanual Goldstein, an unseen character in the novel 1984 who did not even exist but was famous for having refused to discuss a controversy where his teammate repeatedly raped a child.
What was the sentence for his crime?
Do all nations have the same focus on rehabilitation as the US prison system?
Is it possible for an individual to commit such an act and reform themselves, perhaps even earn the trust of society again?
He served one year in the UK for raping a 12-year-old multiple times. Then, through a treaty, he was extradited to the Netherlands and served no more time at all. He called the whole thing nonsense when the press asked him about it.
Please do tell us how that is a fair punishment for raping a 12 year old multiple times.
The US does not have a rehabilitation prison system. We don't really have a justice system, we have a vengeance system and a torture prison system. I don't think prison should be torture or a slave plantation for any convict in any case. Although our property crime sentencing is overly harsh and violent crimes against a person are far to lenient. I think rapists need to be removed from society more than anything else, it should be up there with murder one. Also I think most non violent convicts could be on house arrest, work, pay taxes, and not be vengefully tortured.
I'm only intolerant of intolerance. That means I'll forgive murderers and rapists once they've completed their punishment and rehabilitation. But, I also understand that my perspective on forgiveness isn't common.
Except you're not forgiving them once they've had their punishment and Rehabilitation. As pointed out this child rapist is unremorsful. He was neither punished nor rehabilitated. He's an unrepentant child rapist. That's who you're defending.
A year for multiple rapes if a 12 year old is barely a sentence, no matter what justice system you’re in. And he’s clearly not even sorry.
I agree. He voluntarily did more, though.
When? Before he voluntarily did more, or afterwards?
Rape isn't alcoholism. For some it's maybe like heroin. But, I've not had a drink in more than a decade and know a heroin addict with more time under his belt. People can change.
After he screwed up someone's life then did more than his sentence, he seems OK to everyone he's engaging with now. So, I wonder if I'd forgive him if I met him IRL. It's easier to judge him without nuance hypothetically, when there's no consequences for doing so. If I met him I'd hopefully be strong enough give him a chance.
And his victim, who has self harmed after he hurt her, gets to watch him live his best life at the olympics.
No. That’s not ok.
If you'll never forgive, why not just kill proactively?
No. That's not ok.
Wow that is QUITE a jump from this dude shouldn’t be in the olympics to why not kill him.
There is plenty of other shit he could be doing that doesn’t involve international television.
And no, i will not forgive rapists because I have yet to see one who has ever been remorseful for what they’ve done. Certainly not from what i’m hearing about this guy.
There's plenty of other shit you could be doing than punishing someone forever instead of offering them a quick death.
So I'm not overly familiar, but I can try to summarize what I know.
Steven van de Velde is a Dutchman who went to the UK and raped a 12 year-old. He was sentenced to four years in prison for this by a UK court. Later he was extradited to the Netherlands, so he could sit out his sentence in the NL. However in the Netherlands, unlike the UK, sex with a minor is not automatically considered rape and needs to be proven in court. (Note: That is my understanding of the difference in interpretation) Because of this his conviction was reduced to "ontucht", meaning sexual misconduct. (Even though what he did would probably also be considered rape in Dutch court).
As a result, he was out of prison after 13 months.
Now, Dutch attitude to these kinds of things, in my experience, is generally (but not always) that if you have paid your time, and have shown remorse for your actions, then it should probably not affect your future career prospects. The justice system is supposed to rehabilitate after all. (That is my experience though, and my experience may be biased, so don't take this as gospel)
Hart van Nederland did a survey, and apparently only 27% of respondents think he should not be allowed to compete. 63% of respondents think he should be allowed to compete, and 10% don't have an opinion either way. (Note that Hart van Nederland is not the most reliable of sources, but it gives an indication)
From what I have seen in Dutch circles this controversy is a lot less pronounced than it is in other countries. That's not to say it is entirely uncontroversial, but it's not quite to the same degree as I'm seeing internationally.
Personal opinion:
I don't think his sentence should have been lowered to "ontucht". I think what he did is morally reprehensible, and he should have sat out the full sentence for raping a minor. That is a failure on behalf of the justice system though, and van de Velde is not personally to blame for that.
~~That said, given that he has shown remorse for his actions, and has finished the sentence that the legal system imposed on him, I don't think he should have been barred from competing in the Olympics on behalf of the Dutch team.~~
Edit: As Flying Squid mentioned I might be mistaken that he has shown genuine remorse.
If he hasn't that changes my opinion on the matter.
Remorse?
His "remorse" was over getting caught. He has never offered the slightest bit of apology to the victim.
If he hasn't shown genuine remorse than changes my stance.
Given what I had read on the matter I was under the impression he had shown remorse. Particularly the "biggest mistake of [his] life" remark.
True remorse would involve an apology to the victim. At least I think most people would think so.
I disagree with that. There’s no need to put the victim on the spot like that. True remorse definitely doesn’t involve rejecting culpability like that though.
How is making a public apology to the victim putting them on the spot? I would say that a public apology is almost literally the least he could do for her.
It means she has to decide if she’ll listen to it, when and how she’ll be able to process it, and whether she forgives him. All of that in public? Not a chance in hell I’d want my rapist to do that.
Only if people expected her to respond, which they wouldn't. The press would not be clamoring to see if she accepted it. They haven't even named her as far as I know, since she was a minor, so they wouldn't be able to.
Because all of that would be true regardless of whether he apologized in public or in private.
I've never heard anyone take a stance against a public apology before. This is honestly a very strange stance.
It’s still just hanging there, over her head, even if nobody expects an answer.
Weird, most of the people I’ve talked to while witnessing public apologies agree that they’d feel awful to receive. I don’t really talk about it in other scenarios, so I don’t know how common it is.
Which would be just as true if he apologized in private.
I absolutely don’t suggest a private apology! He should just leave her the hell alone forever
You are against apologizing to someone you've hurt? Really?
Thread got removed for me, possibly because I swore, but I don’t think it’s productive for the victim unless they seek it out. It’s too easy to load it with double meaning and use it as an opportunity to hurt them further. The only way to avoid that would be to use boilerplate language that doesn’t mean anything.
That squid guy is quite ridiculous. He regularly throws reason out the window to feed his ego by bashing whomever he can pass shallow judgement upon.
That's where I think the mob goes wrong. Rape is a pretty big mistake. But, the best people I know today are that way in total rejection of who they once were. They've never brought it up. I confront them when I see myself in them.
His actions seem to demonstrate compliance and remorse.
Source
Those empowered to judge him have judged him forgiven.
On what basis should we believe differently?
We could find a stupid or good reason to discard each and every individual. Humans are deeply flawed. I need not conveniently bash this talented man to feel good about myself. I chose the more difficult and quite unpopular position of forgiveness.
You're seemingly the only person who understood. You're true to your username. I liked how you didn't assign him responsibility for the perceived failure of the justice system. I think it was the critical thing that needed said when saying that he did more than what was mandated. Thank you for speaking up.
Reason wins because propaganda has a much shorter half life.
Removed, civility.
Removed, 3 day ban. I am a mod here and you will remain civil or be removed.
What exactly are you banning them for? Their comment seems pretty civil to me.
Their original comment was removed because they accused another user of being a child rapist.
The comment that got them a 3 day ban was for attacking a mod.
You can see their full modlog here:
https://lemmy.world/modlog?page=1&userId=98689
Based on their history, I expect they'll come back even worse and end up being permanently banned.
That wasn't an accusation, it was a very stupid insinuation.
And that comment about you is less an attack and more an accusation. If the mod team deems fit to throw around bans because they can't deal with a random user being critical yet allow some other users on here to continue to post literal Nazi propaganda, then I don't know man.
I see you around a ton, and your moderating seems to be very personal.
It's not personal, I don't have that kind of time.
Some comments don't get removed because they simply aren't reported. It's not like we're personally reading every comment in every thread.
Here's how it works:
We have a queue of reported messages, we go through the list and decide if it's infringing or not.