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submitted 3 months ago by schizoidman@lemm.ee to c/world@lemmy.world

cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/19046336

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[-] dharmacurious@slrpnk.net 84 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Some of the comments in this thread really tell you why it takes a novel laureate to say this. Some of y'all do not have a basic understanding of history, economic systems, or what the term reactionary actually means.

The correct response to "neo liberal capitalism has contributed to the rise of fascism" should be "no shit, Sherlock"

It's truly sad that that isn't 100% of the comments here.

Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleed, y'all. That doesn't mean all liberals are fascist, that means that fascism is an outgrowth of liberalism.

And just in case y'all also don't know what that means, "liberalism" in that context isn't "Obama liberal, Bush conservative," it means the political ideology of liberalism, of which both Bush and Obama were proponents of.

ETA: I'm not engaging anymore.. it's not my job to teach y'all the difference between an economic system and authoritarian states. Also, your magic has no power here, I am an anarchist, not a stalinist. Please educate yourselves. If for no other reason, do it to make it easier to pwn the tankies or whatever the fuck

[-] lolcatnip@reddthat.com 17 points 3 months ago

Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleed, y'all.

I really, really hate that expression. It's like it's purposely designed to alienate people with mostly good intentions telling them they're no different from horrible people they hate with a fiery passion.

That doesn't mean all liberals are fascist, that means that fascism is an outgrowth of liberalism.

Saying it means something other than what it plainly does mean doesn't make it any better. Maybe it means that to you, but any slogan you have to explain is a shit slogan. All it does is signal membership in your in-group while telling everyone else who hears it that you're part of their out-group.

[-] jorp@lemmy.world 10 points 3 months ago

This is a problem with slogans and not just this slogan. Another one is "ACAB" which people get upset about because they know someone who is a cop and they don't think that cop is a bastard... But "policing has systemic issues that hurt marginalized people disproportionately, primarily exists at the intersection between haves and have nots in a way that mostly serves the capitalist ruling class rather than creating justice" doesn't fit in a sign.

[-] primrosepathspeedrun@lemmy.world 7 points 3 months ago

okay but all cops, conclusively, ARE bastards, and we should say it so no idiot idealistic kids think they can join and be the good one.

because its true, and they are. all of them.

if one ever stopped being a bastard, they would stop being a cop pretty quick. usually via training accident.

[-] LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.world 0 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I'm not so sure training to be a cop has any impact on whether your parents were married 18+ years before.

The police aren't going anywhere. The path you described means no one who wants to better the system should join.. so it will always just be people who want to abuse power. Am I reading your proposal wrong? We should workshop this.

Edit: re-read what I wrote and realized it sounded dickish instead of constructive. Sorry about that, my dumb lump of a brain thought it sounded a lot different when I was writing it.

[-] primrosepathspeedrun@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago

the system cannot be improved 'from the inside', 'reform from within' has not worked in the past four hundred years of constant trying, when institutional culture was far less entrenched.

what has changed, that it would magically work now? that the fucking mythical good-cop king under the mountain will return and save us all by making the often literal neo nazi death squads whose soul reason for existing is the maintenance of hierarchal violence and wealth/class disparity be nice and cool and prosocial?

[-] LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.world 0 points 3 months ago

Last 400 years what has changed? A lot. I'm not saying the police are going to change anytime soon, but women have only had the ability to vote for 25% of that. That was a big change. The end of legalized slavery outside of incarceration hasn't been around that long either... Kinda big one might say. Before I die I hope to see large improvements in rehabilitation during incarceration as efforts are growing world wide.

We can live with hope and keep pushing towards a better life for people, or we can cower in fear and think nothing will ever change. Hell, 20 years ago a universal healthcare system in the U.S. would have been thought impossible to ever occur, now I think that it could happen in the next 20 years if people get out and vote for it.

For every inch we take there is always backlash and sometimes we lose ground. We just need to hope we don't lose decades, if not a 250 years come this election.

[-] primrosepathspeedrun@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago

okay but, like, specifically, this specific question:

what has changed, that it would magically work now? that the fucking mythical good-cop king under the mountain will return and save us all by making the often literal neo nazi death squads whose soul reason for existing is the maintenance of hierarchal violence and wealth/class disparity be nice and cool and prosocial?

what specific changes have happened? what did the police 'reforms' after 2020 fix? have the rates of innocent people gunned down in the streets in the woods in their homes gone down in the past four years? what about the time before that? or before that? or before that? your proposal has failed, constantly, invariable, without one exception, since before the invention of the steam engine. it's not even stupidity anymore; it's insanity.

stop cowering. stop restricting your horizon of action to the things your oppressors tell you you're allowed to do. look for the gaps. look the the real solutions. try playing a non-pacifist run of 'wolfenstein', see if you do any better.

[-] primrosepathspeedrun@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

good aesthetics and good vibes ≠ good intentions

and its the vibes that liberals really care about. its the obsession with feelings and aesthetics over truth. which is also why it's such fertile soil for fascism to grow in. scratch a liberal, break the good vibes, snap them out of it, make them look at a homeless person, and they go fasch real quick. they certainly do a lot of shit fascists would approve of, they just kick some sand over it after. for example: the homeless purges about to sweep through california were ordered by a liberal, with the broad approval of liberals.

the concentration camps for migrants were built as much under liberals and fascists. as long as they dont have to see it, any amount of horror is fine. if it helps them not see suffering, any amount of horror is encouraged. they're nice, they're pleasant, but they are not friends, and the assumption that we're natural allies, that they can behave as badly as they want and still count on left support is how american politics got as fucked as they are.

[-] Junkhead@slrpnk.net 7 points 3 months ago

exactly this just the natural end result of capitalism, the end goal has always been complete control by the ruling class.

[-] index@sh.itjust.works -1 points 3 months ago

Some of y’all do not have a basic understanding of history, economic systems, or what the term reactionary actually means.

Do you?

The correct response to “neo liberal capitalism has contributed to the rise of fascism” should be “no shit, Sherlock”

That's pretty much most of the comments in this thread

And just in case y’all also don’t know what that means, “liberalism” in that context isn’t “Obama liberal, Bush conservative,” it means the political ideology of liberalism, of which both Bush and Obama were proponents of.

I don't think these two were ever liberal about anything. The term liberalism has a wide history, associating it as a whole to fascism sounds a stretch.

[-] dharmacurious@slrpnk.net 14 points 3 months ago

In order, but not quoting because mobile app and lazy:

Yes.

I said some.

They were both liberal, in that they were both proponents of liberalism, as in "liberal democracy." Not liberalism as left of center. Liberalism as in market economies and private property.

I'm also not necessarily associating liberalism as a whole to fascism. All zits are zots, but not all zots are zits, you dig? Fascism is an outgrowth of liberalism and capitalism, but it doesn't mean liberalism is fascistic or that it is inevitable. It means that when liberalism is threatened, in decline, backed into a corner by its own contradictions, fascism is one way that it defends itself so that the status quo can be maintained. It just depends on which part of the status society/the ruling class/those in charge value more. The personal freedom bit, the private property bit, the lifestyle of the rich bit? Social democracy is another way that liberalism defends itself, favored by those who value the other end of the spectrum. Fascism is a reaction to growing tensions around those contradictions and growing support for things like social democracy and actual socialism.

Also, this article specifically cites neo liberalism, an ideology of its own, and an outgrowth of liberalism, but liberalism itself. The shittiest form liberalism takes without going full fash IMHO, but it's hard to define "shitty" in any sort of academic sense. But fuck Reagan and Thatcher.

[-] barsoap@lemm.ee 6 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

The term liberalism has a wide history, associating it as a whole to fascism sounds a stretch.

What specifically got called out was neoliberalism. While ordoliberalism was briefly called neoliberalism the general understanding of the term is "Whatever nefarious shit the Atlas network is currently up to". Things like conflating the free market with unregulated markets (which are anything but free), trickle-down economics, ludicrously excessive rent seeking behaviour, like say privatised pension funds, publishing ratings calling countries "nanny states" for having warnings on cigarettes because yes the tobacco lobby is very much part of that ilk, really the list is pretty endless: It's pure class war. War creates victims, those victims need handling, and misdirection of ire is a very convenient strategy, "It's not the billionaires who own everything who are at fault that you can't make rent, it's the immigrants".

It's not just Marx who is rotating in his grave, Adam Smith is very much spinning with at least the same RPM. It's after all his own work which gets abused by those people.

As to the more sensible liberalisms -- they largely got captured. The EU has a strong ordoliberal bent actually regulating markets ((it's in fact constitutionally a social market economy), but that neolib shit is still eating away at it and many people, even policy makers, can't really tell the difference.

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this post was submitted on 12 Aug 2024
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