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It's super simple...
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 15 Aug 2024
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Hello.
I'm a german citizen and i feel obliged to educate you on this topic. I still see the remnants and aftermath of the second world war every single day, living in this history rich country.
The holocaust was ordered in the last few years of the second world war, since it was good knowledge that germany would be loosing amongst german officers. That means approximately 6 mio. People have been killed in around 3.5 years (Yes of course people also died earlier on, but let's keep it easy). Or equal to: 40.000 people Per Day. So imagine your stadium, gone, every 24 hours. For around 3.5 years.
But thats not it. Those people got tortured, they got used for horrific "scientific" experiments, there were surgery's held on those people without any kind of painkiller (excuse me English is not my first language).
They were treated less than animals. They had to work in the factories for Hitlers war effort and did horrific jobs, often times loosing limbs. They were extremely malnutritioned, dehydrated, and kept awake forcefully by beeing dumped full of drugs like cocaine and crack. Many times, actually most of the times, they died from exhaustion. If anything was out of the ordinary or they seemed unfit for work, they got used for experiments and if they survived that, killed.
They sometimes stayed for years in those camps.
But the crazy thing about this is. It depends on how you count. In the second world war there were around 12-18mio. Deaths. So depending on who you ask, and what counts for you as a holocaust, for example being forcefully drafted into a military as say a 14 year old and told to run into machine gun fire, you could be closer to around 2 stadiums, per day.
Yes. A stadium full is mass murder, but its not a holocaust. And statements like these will make you hard to believe for many people. I know what you are trying to say. Its a lot a a lot a lot a lot of people. Yes. But if you compare it to the holocaust, thats something whole different.
This.
Additionally, the nazis built infrastructure (trains, KZs, ...) just to kill Jews. They optimized it to maximize the amount of Jews to bring into KZs, they built the infamous gas showers and gas chambers to be able to kill more people more efficiently.
They industrialized genocide.
While there were many cruel mass murders, this industrialization thing makes it unique so far.
Greetings from a fellow German.
Israel has literally done this though.
By all means, it's a Palestinian holocaust.
They have built infrastructure explicitly for murdering gazans at an industrial pace?
They shipped in gazans from around Europe? Wow I hadn't heard any of this. Is Goebbels involved, too?
Yes they have industrialized it. But you seem to have some pedantic definition of industrialized mass murder that somehow only applies to Jews. Got it. ;)
Lol you're calling me pedantic while splitting hairs over what "THE HOLOCAUST" could mean. Check the post your commenting under.
Please touch grass.
https://lemmy.world/comment/11800560
I touch grass on a daily basis actually
"Additionally, the Zionists built infrastructure (separation walls, checkpoints, expanding settlements) just to kill Palestinians. They optimized it to maximize the amount of Palestinians to bring into Gaza (an open air prison) or overcrowded Israeli jails, they built the infamous AI targeting systems and have gotten the biggest imprecise missiles they could find to be able to kill more people more efficiently. On top of that, they completely cut off supplies and destroyed all universities and many hospitlas water facilities in the open air prison they crowded Palestinians too".
I had a relationship with a German some years ago. I was told that there was some kind of collective punishment (my words) still going on because of WW2. That Germany still felt responsible, and pushed that responsibility onto the next generation, a generation with no relation to WW2 other than being born in Germany.
Why can't the older generation let the next generation move on without inheriting their burden?
This is an agenda pushed by the right. They don't understand the difference between guilt / responsibility for what happened and responsibility to not let it happen again.
We are not guilty nor responsible for what happened during WW2, but we are responsible to not let it ever happen again.
It is not "pushed onto us". Its important to remember what happend in order to tell the signs and stop it from happening ever again. The narrative of "We are not responsible for it anymore and shouldn't feel any guilt" is a narrative mostly used by german right-wing conservatists trying to erase this part of our history out of the books and education.
Because everything doable has to be done to prevent something like this from happening ever again. Feeling some guilt is a small price to pay. Sincerely, a German
Does it though? Seems like it produces a weird emotional response and lots of hot air. Guilt doesn't seem healthy nor useful nor effective in stoping future genocides.
Otherwise we would have seen a better response from the German government who should have felt guilty enough about the holocaust to prevent one from happening in Gaza. Instead, they pledge support to Israel. Cool. Very "guilty" indeed.
Yes it does. It creates awareness for antisemitism and fascism. It makes you feel responsible for political changes as an individual, which is important for a functioning democracy.
A Nazi party is currently on the rise here, they're called AfD. Obviously, it doesn't work for those people, but it can't be expected to work for everyone. There have been mass protests against that party though (I'm talking multiple millions of people all across Germany were protesting) under the motto "Nie wieder ist jetzt" (Never again is now). I think that shows how the knowledge about the Holocaust mobilizes people to act against right wing extremists.
I'm not happy with the official reactions of the German government to Israel. You need to understand, however, that after Germany tried to eradicate Jews, we've made it a priority to defend their right for a safe home. I agree that they currently abuse this right in many ways. There has certainly also been criticism among German highly ranked politicians of Israel's actions, albeit probably not enough. You need to understand though that antisemitism is still rooted in German society, and it is important not to fuel it. That's a fine line to walk on there. I agree that it's probably not handled optimally currently, but it's also not as easy as you make it out to be.
Maybe in the way you define it, it does, but not in the way I see I being used.
How would I be feeling anti-Semitism? I think not funding a genocide and taking. a strong human rights stance is easy and doable.
It is fueling it because criticism of Israeli politics is constantly mixed with antisemitic narratives. That's the fault of antisemites of course, but the problem is there and cannot be denied. As I said, I don't agree with how it's handled, but it needs to be acknowledged that it's a hard problem to solve. Believe me, I wish all this was easier. I wish I could protest Israels actions without being seen as an antisemite but I can't because of the dynamics of the public discourse which is driven by extremists of all sides. The discourse here has been poisoned by antisemites, racists and islamophobes to an extent where expressing a nuanced and/or pure-hearted opinion on the matter is almost impossible.
How is it hard to take a stand against a genocide after Germany itself made one happen?
Because at demonstrations that call Israel out for what it does, they shout anti-semitic stuff. I don't want to take part in a demonstration that spreads anti-semitism.
Me neither. Sorry to hear this is happening at demonstrations you have seen.
What have they been shouting?
Mostly "from the river to the sea" (which I know isn't historically anti-semitic but has been used increasingly in the context of denying Israel's right of existence and is now even banned on demonstrations in Germany), they also demand the local university to dismiss Jewish or Israel-friendly professors. I looked at social media presences of some of the organizations that support the demonstrations and some of them downplay or even celebrate the October attacks by Hamas.
That being said, there certainly is public pressure to generalize all pro-Palestinian protests as anti-semitic - which is very wrong and I think it's highly problematic that some politicians fuel this narrative. It does, however, make it even harder for someone with a nuanced point of view to join the protests (not an excuse, just an explanation why the demonstrations become more and more extremist).
Israel shouldn't really exist as a country though. Nothing anti-Semitic about that. It's an illegitimate apartheid state. I am not saying any Israelis should be forcefully dispalced.
Other things do sound anti-Semitic though.