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this post was submitted on 20 Sep 2024
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Disgusting as it is, she has a job to perform and has no authority to determine what mail is sent. This shit needs to be stopped at the source, not by a mail carrier. Either do you job or step aside.
Whenever laws get broken, it's constantly "I was just doing my job".
The Postal office can find someone else to do that delivery.
You don't know how long they've been working there. And that directly puts their family at potential harm.
It’s her job to deliver the mail. The only law broken here is her refusal to deliver it. You don’t get to cherry pick the mail system.
If she won’t deliver the mail, she needs to be fired. Period.
The SS at Auschwitz were also "doing their job"
I love this discussion because it's a complex issue.
I suppose I stand on the side that maybe she should have just delivered them. It's just words and individuals can throw garbage in the bin pretty easily. I sure as shit wouldn't want anybody filtering my mail.
OTOH, "got a job to do" is a weak justification for unethical behaviour.
Put me down 3:2 in favour of delivering the things I guess.
It is a complex issue and deserves a full conversation. It's hard to say what I would do in her shoes, but it probably would be to copy a personal letter a bunch of times. The context of the letter would, of course, be a general warning about circulating hate speech mail trying to misinform people, and be wary of what you read.
Hot take bud, where do you draw the line with that?
Can a transphobic postal carrier refuse to deliver anything they disagree with also? Shouldn’t they be able to decide what mail you get based on their beliefs as well?
Or are you a hypocrite that thinks that rules should only be broken because you disagree with them.
Oh, and please don’t go to Nazis when you feel someone disagrees with you. It’s immature, it’s irrelevant to the discussion, and it’s foolish as hell.
Pro trans material isn't putting people in harm's way
Huge difference bud
People with strong religious beliefs believe that it does. They believe that even allowing people to see that LGBTQ+ people can be accepted leads to an acceptance of sin, and risks condemning a soul to hell. Even if it's bullshit, they still believe that real harms are being done.
You’re wrong here bud. No matter how you feel about it. You’re wrong. It’s her job to deliver mail. Even if she disagrees with it.
And for the record- they will tell you that trans rights puts people in harms way as well- even if we both disagree- belief is belief at the end of the day- and someone is choosing to take the law into their own hands based on that belief.
She should be fired.
I’m done arguing this with people that don’t understand how federal laws work on the most basic of levels.
Maybe not fired for a first offense. That's a bit extreme imo.
In a different scenario, what would you think if it was UPS or another private company worker instead of federal?
If it’s your job to do a thing, and you don’t do the thing you agreed on upon being hired- you lose said job.
That’s how life works.
You haven't met some of my coworkers.
Fair enough. That’s true. I certainly have not.
She could argue it's self defence technically. As we all know what shitfuckery advertising like that leads to...
She's probably been delivering the mail for decades. Just not some bigoted advertising.
It's not my job to pull down Nazi sticker crap or clean it up, but I do.
Yes management should reject that delivery, but she also has a right not to put her family in harm's way.
Jesus christ, no, she can't argue that it's self defense. What is the imminent risk of physical harm to the mail carrier here? Self defense only applies to cases of immediate physical harm, and that's just not this. At best there's an argument to be made for very, very indirect harms.
This is every bit as dumb as arguing that someone waving a Nazi flag means that you can self-defense them to death because they're going to hurt someone eventually.
Good, and you should. But that's you acting in your personal capacity, not as an agent of the gov't.
So should a bigoted transphobe mail carrier be allowed to deny mail from a source depicting trans rights as a positive thing?
Does this work both ways?
Or is it only that the law should be broken because you disagree with it. You don’t get to cherry pick federal laws bud. That’s not how it works.
What? The flyers promote the discrimination and criminalisation of a minority group, versus your example which would be promoting minority rights.
Those aren't comparable.
They’re 100% comparable when you understand how federal law works. Learn it- then come back here and we can discuss whether or not a mail carrier has the right to decide what mail you get.
Until then, I don’t think you can carry your side in this discussion.
Well I'm not too well versed on Canadian federal laws as I'm a bit further south. So I looked into discrimination laws in New Brunswick, Canada and found this Human Rights Act
Some parts that could be relevant;
Not a lawyer or expert, but that seems to apply at least superficially. Maybe a bit of a stretch. But it helps that the fliers were full of factually wrong and hateful anti-trans myths. And freedom of speech has limits, even federally.
ETA: However, mail carriers are probably exclusively covered by federal law, and the federal Canadian Human Rights Act ~~only seems to specify discrimination and not harassment. I do think it's too much of a stretch to say this would be covered by any federal laws~~
Final edit: ok I read more. This is the closest thing I could find from the federal Human Rights Act
If I am misinterpreting it, please let me know. I think it could be used as an argument tho
Now look up wether or not mail carriers get to decide what mail you get-
I understand that. I'm reading way too many laws already lol
If the letter is determined to be unlawful, there's a provision that allows Canadian Post to not deliver the letter. It's a whole process that the mail carriers did not follow. Maybe if they had tried, and used the argument that it was unlawful discrimination or harassment to deliver the fliers, they would have had a leg to stand on. It seems that they didn't, they took matters into their own hands, and they were punished accordingly.
To be more clear, I'm not arguing against the punishment. Just the fliers and if they could be considered unlawful
So, if I order a product, and the carrier doesn’t like the product- they can deny me my mail? Hmmm…
I’m nearly certain that’s not how it works.
What do you mean "doesn't like"? The federal government "doesn't like" citizens sending bombs in the mail, and they would deny you that, yes. I'm not sure what the point of your reply was, it doesn't argue against anything I've said. Sounds like a straw man.
There's a difference between individual mail carriers and the organization USPS or Canadian Post. And there's a difference between dislike and illegal. I thought we already established that, is that something you disagree on??
I love how you have to go to ridiculous comparisons to make a point. It shows you have none.
• A bomb and a flyer you don’t like- AREN’T the same thing.
Now try again with this newly learned fact.
Yes, they are not the same thing. That's what a comparison is. If you think it's a bad comparison, feel free to explain why you think so
Wrong thread, this is postal workers withholding mail
Yep. Wrong thread indeed. Wasn’t expecting an old argument to be brought up. My mistake.
ROFL.
You're on the wrong side of history on this one, but that doesn't mean we can't talk about this. People who would otherwise agree on most things can have disagreements. That's what is so great about democracy.
Absolutely agree, (on the we can discuss it part, not the wrong side of history part)
then you should resign
People in positions of leadership and power should stand up to fascists. We are heading into a crucial election on November 5th where a christo-fascist movement, known as MAGA, is attempting to overturn our democracy. Anyone in the position to say no to fascists who has the inclination to do so should should stay in that position for the upcoming election and say no to fascists.
Worse people have thrown better mail away for worse reasons.
Relevance?
No matter a person's job, everyone should reject intolerance. This was a disinformation campaign designed to ban gender affirming care, a collection of lifesaving medical treatments. Such a ban would deny trans people the fundamental right to exist. Postal workers should make the strategic decision to defend life and liberty by not spreading such disinformation campaigns.
If you cannot perform the job, don’t apply for the job. If it is going to contain things you disagree with- stay away and get a safer job.
It’s not other people’s problem what someone else can or cannot tolerate.
It has nothing to do with competency. We as a society should reject intolerance. It is very much the fascists problem that we do not tolerate their intolerance. The fascists have broken the social contract of tolerance and thus, in this case, their speech should not be protected by the social contract of tolerance.