791
Socialism is not even radical
(lemmy.ml)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 03 Oct 2024
791 points (92.5% liked)
United States | News & Politics
7166 readers
852 users here now
founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
Drag should not assume I am saying electoralism is the end all, be all of political action. I am advocating for organizing outside the electoral system as the primary role of leftists, and refusing to give the electoral system legitimacy. Voting Dem is not a "good thing," because the Dems are unacceptable and will lead to genocide, world war 3, and failed climate action.
Drag is confused. How does voting legimitise the electoral system? Drag mostly does direct action, but drag also votes.
If voting for Democrats is seen as activism, then activism is oriented around voting for Democrats. Voting third party signals disapproval for the system in general and tells the public what views those in disapproval have.
If Drag wants to do direct action, and believes it to be the path to systemic change, then voting for Democrats is counter-intuitive.
Drag doesn't get it. None of that sounds like practical, material effects. It just sounds like symbolic gestures. Drag wants to know if there's any physical reasons not to vote, or just symbolic ones. Also drag is not a capitalised pronouns user, but drag is glad you're willing to respect people with capitalised pronouns.
How is delegitimizing the electoral system by voting for leftist third parties not practical? If leftists continue to prop up right wing parties committing genocide, failing to address climate change adequately, and working towards World War 3, then that will be the status quo that is maintained. To get off of this train, leftists need to organize outside the bounds of electoralism, build up dual power, and signal strength with third party voting.
The physical reason not to prop up the democrats is that the democrats are leading the US to the end of the world, just like the republicans, and legitimizing their rule makes leftist organizing more difficult.
That's a circular argument. Drag asked you how voting props up the electoral system. You said "well how does propping up the electoral system help?" Drag agrees that propping up the electoral system is bad, but drag has not been told a reason that voting is that, except that it's supposed to be a symbolic loss. Drag doesn't care about symbolic losses, drag cares about stopping Trump from bombing the West Bank. Drag cares about Palestinian lives much more than symbolic complicity. Drag still wants to hear a practical reason why voting helps electoralism.
I never said voting props up the electoral system, I said voting for Democrats or Republicans props it up. Drag is arguing against ghosts.
Drag still wants an answer to the question you think drag should have asked. Drag doesn't think that detail is worth delaying the actual conversation for.
I already answered it.
Your answer was that it's a bad symbol. If drag thinks the only reason not to vote Democrat is because it's a symbolic admission of defeat, is drag understanding your argument as you wish it to be understood?
Nope! ๐
Then maybe you should explain what you want drag to understand
Drag already asked how voting for the democrats legitimises them, and you didn't answer except for a symbolic reason. Drag wants a practical reason. Do you understand drag's critique? You gave a "practical" reason made out of symbolic reasons. Drag wants a practical reason made out of practical reasons.
Legitimacy comes from the consent of the governed.
If the governed stop voting, the legitimacy goes away.
Drag wonders if you have heard of monarchies. You don't want legitimacy, does that mean monarchy is better than capitalist democracy?
Have you not noticed how there aren't a lot of monarchies these days? That's what happens when a government is illegitimate. The governed decide to take matters into their own hands when they no longer respect their government's legitimacy.
I also wonder if you've ever noticed how dictatorships still have sham elections where they give themselves 90%+ of the vote?
Drag is not very smart, so drag can't extrapolate your comment into a specific answer to drag's question. Drag would like a yes or no, to whether you would rather America be a monarchy than its current electoral system.
No
That's literally impossible, you don't understand how monarchs function or why they declined. Learn some fucking history.
Drag agrees with you. A capitalist false democracy is bad, but any bit of power in the hands of the workers is better than the alternative. That's why our vote is important.
Sure, but that's why our vote should be used to agitate the masses by giving more support to socialist parties. Voting for imperialism and genocide and mass incarceration and border fascism/fascist collaboration is not a productive use of our votes.
Don't vote for someone you wouldn't be willing to donate to or volunteer for!
Drag doesn't believe more votes give more power to political parties. Drag thinks that's a myth made up by the government to disenfranchise leftists. Drag thinks you're falling for CIA propaganda.
If votes didn't give more power to political parties they wouldn't be removing third parties from the ballot, they wouldn't put in so much energy into convincing everyone to never vote third party, they wouldn't actively disenfranchise US citizens and take away their ability to vote, the US government's three letter agencies wouldn't have bothered killing off the Black Panther Party. CIA propaganda is convincing you to vote for the Party that supports the CIA, which gives them legitimacy.
The first two are adequately explained by parties wanting to win elections. The question of who wins the election isn't relevant to drag's point, drag's point is the power held by the winning party. Not increased by high voter turnout.
The third point is backwards. You said parties want less people to vote, because more votes make them more powerful. That's silly.
The fourth point is adequately explained by the Black Panthers doing direct action. Drag doesn't think the CIA cared how the Panthers voted.
The fifth point is irrelevant, because voting doesn't give the CIA power, just as drag says. You can't argue that voting gives government power because it gives government power. That's silly.
Drag wants you to take this discussion seriously, please. Drag is really putting an effort in and drag would like it if you did as well.
I already answered. Voting Dem perpetuates Dem rule, if Leftists are pushed to vote Dem and see it as activism then the Dems take advantage of that and portray voting Dem as activism. Feeding the electoral system by voting for either dictatorial establishment party maintains their rule and legitimizes the system.
Drag doesn't care who sees what as activism. Drag cares if leftists are doing things. Drag cares about vandalising cars, and reducing animal consumption, and making bike lanes, and bothering oil companies, and making the police feel scared, and giving hormones to trans people, and ensuring abortion access, and open source software, and getting social media out of corporate websites, and giving homes to homeless people. Drag votes too. Drag doesn't believe voting stops drag from doing all those things. Drag doesn't believe voting stops anyone else from doing those things either.
Drag thinks you are afraid to admit defeat. But there is a class war and there has been for ten thousand years. And wars have battles, and some are lost. Right now, leftists lost the battle for the US electoral system. We will admit we have lost, and then we will band together and win. Drag doesn't think we can win if we pretend we have already won. Drag doesn't think we can win if we pretend the electoral system is on our side. Drag thinks you are pretending the electoral system is on your side. Drag thinks you are too proud to admit that the system can force you to pick between only bad options. Drag thinks you are scared of the system having so much power. Drag knows the system has a lot of power, and drag knows we can still beat it. We will do what we can with defeat until victory is ours. And we will fight on all the other battlefields too at the same time.
Drag can continue supporting the system drag claims to oppose while committing adventurism with Mutual Aid on the side all drag wants, the only way to gain leftist victory is to organize and delegitimize the regime.
How will you fight a war without soldiers? Drag teaches a class on transgender voice training, so that the trans comrades don't feel like they have to kill themselves. Drag is a medic, keeping the soldiers healthy for the class war. That is what mutual aid means. How will you fight a war without medics? How will you fight a war without healthy soldiers? The logistical structures of mutual aid will become the logistical structures of the revolution. But you will not succeed if you ask people to give their lives for the cause without helping them. We will care for people, and in so doing teach them how an anarchist society can care for them. And we will care for them while they fight. What is the alternative? Dead comrades who died of exposure because they were homeless? Of suicide because they were dysphoric? Of drought because we did not care for the environment while they were alive? Wars are not just fighting. Infantry wins battles. Logistics wins wars.
Drag also sees that you are not engaging with drag's points about the electoral system not being on our side. Drag asks you to be brave, please.
I literally told drag to organize. A Vanguard Party with actual structure and logistics, which is what PSL is trying to be. I ask drag to stop being bad-faith.
Drag thought you were saying mutual aid is bad. Drag apologises for being confused.
Mutual Aid is good, adventurism is useless, and supporting and legitimizing the regime is bad.
Drag looked up adventurism in Oxford Dictionary and read that it's "the willingness to take risks in business or politics; actions or attitudes regarded as reckless or potentially hazardous." Drag disagrees with you and likes adventurism. But drag agrees with you on mutual aid and supporting the regime, which is why drag does mutual aid and does not support or legitimise the Democrats. Drag is not sure why we seem to be disagreeing right now.