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this post was submitted on 29 Oct 2024
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Not mines, IEDs. It was an indiscriminate terrorist attack on a civilian population using improvised explosive devices.
Indiscriminate it was not. It was hyper targeted at everyone in the command chain that got a beeper. It's not as if they sold them through normal stores to the general population.
They literally set off bombs in grocery stores and doctors offices. They killed a kid.
Right, because pagers blowing up in public is not indiscriminate.
It was indiscriminate and it was mass terrorism.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Lebanon_pager_explosions
A supply chain of a terrorist organisations was infiltrated and they where sold devices fitted with explosives and then distributed it within their organisation.
Everyone with a pager (and later also other devices) fell within the Hezbollah hierachy. The fact Hezbollah has infiltrated every level of society and has Docters and many others in their ranks does not make them invalid targets.
Besides, judging from the videos, we saw people standing next to whoever had the pager where mostly fine. The children dieing is horrible.
So calling it indiscriminate is more than a stretch. And the collateral damage is wayyyyy lower than with the rest of how Israël behaves.
Israel has never stopped ethnic cleansing of native populations
Hezbollah exists out of resistance to Occupation and Invasion by Israel
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/09/lebanon-establish-international-investigation-into-deadly-attacks-using-exploding-portable-devices/
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/09/exploding-pagers-and-radios-terrifying-violation-international-law-say-un
Just because Israel routinely violates international humanitarian law and targets civilians doesn't make this any less of a violation of international humanitarian law and a war crime
The settler colonial project of Israel is filled with rabid fascists, I agree whole heartedly. The current government of Israel is peak of that performance.
But trying to paint this as a boobytrap, and targeting civilians. I don't think anyone buys that for a minute.
And this was hardly indiscriminate. It was pagers that where handed directly to Hezbollah and distributed by Hezbollah through their network. It's not as if these where sold by shops in Lebanon to normal Lebanese.
And collateral sucks, but this still had less than the bomb that was dropped on the appartment complex with the command bunker under it filled with Hezbollah staff.
Well, human rights organizations and international law disagree, and I agree with them. Both those articles discuss that in detail, including how it was a booby trap and indiscriminate.
Nor is Hezbollah solely an armed resistance militant group. They are also a prominent political group and maintain a multitude of social services like hospitals, those people are civilians not militants. This did not solely target militants, in fact is mostly didn't.
That's fair!
I think International law does not disagree, it might be something that can be litigated. The pagers where specifically for hezbollah members, not civilians. I'll expect "boobytraps and civilians" to be a losing argument, time will tell.
And, a terrorist organisation that takes over a region, intertwines itself with civil society to get legitimacy while at the same time sabotaging the countries government with threats of terror.. is still a terrorist organisation. And anyone working for them a terrorist. I.e. Someone doing the bookkeeping for a terrorist group is still a terrorist.
Hezbollah started in direct resistance to Israeli occupation of Lebanon, I wonder what would have happened if they had not continued Post occupation or at least not shot at Israel and allowed for the Lebanese government to try and work with Israël on a peaceful border and other things that stood between the countries and their peoples.
I don't really see the use of the labeling of terrorist here, it's reductive to a detriment. I could just as easily call Israel a terrorist state, and by looking at cases of actual acts of terror, it's clear that Israel does magnitudes more. But while acknowledging acts of terrorism is important, giving the label of terrorist to an entire group is not really useful.
It's much more useful to look at the aims and actions, in which we see that Israel is a Settler Colonialist Ethnostate with actions of Ethnic Cleansing, Occupation, and Apartheid. We see that the aims of resistance groups are anti-colonialist, with actions of ending Occupation. We see that one is a reaction to the other, Israel's perpetual violence towards native peoples is the underlying cause of these conflicts. Solutions to ending the violence of anti-colonialism can only come from ending the underlying violence of the colonialism.
Both the Occupier and the Occupied can and do use acts of terrorism to further their aims, but the aims are diametrically opposed. The aim of the occupier is to continue the occupation, that requires violence to maintain. The aim of the occupied is to end the occupation, by any means possible.
We see that permanent occupation develops into an Apartheid, as the settlers / occupiers have rights upheld by the State and Military, while the natives / occupied have no rights and subjected to violence from both the Settlers and Military. The State, who holds the monopoly on power, uses terrorism to suppress resistance to the occupation in order to maintain it. The occupied, having no power, uses terrorism as a means to resist the occupation.
Israel has no interest in peace, it has interest in land grabbing, which is in complete opposition to peace. This is fundamental to Zionism. Which is why an end to Zionism and a regime change, where a Secular Bi-National One-State that gives equal rights to Palestinians and Israelis is the only way for the conflict to really end. Not only with Palestinian resistance, but with all resistance groups that were created by Israeli occupation.
In the link to my comment about the history of the Israel - Palestine conflict, in the One or Two State Solution, I have links where historians Avi Schlaim and Ilan Pappe discuss the realities of the current state of Israel and the Occupied Territories, and why they have to come to see a One-State Solution as the only genuine permanent solution to the conflict. I highly recommend it and their works.
Not improvised, and not on the civilian population, but you're correct about the rest lol
Not on the civilian population, other than pagers blowing up in public?
You can see footage of some Hezbobros blowing up in the middle of a supermarket, with the people standing around them being unharmed. They were intended to maim the user of the device, the explosives were too small to cause much more. Sure, there are a handful of civilians hurt or even killed but this is was a lot 'cleaner' than throwing bombs from planes or Hezbollah's own preferred method of firing rockets over the border.
As per Wikipedia, Hezbollah has to kill one civilian for every 2 soldiers. With the pager attacks, Israel hit 2750 Hezbobros and 'only' killed 2 kids.
I'll take warfare tactics you don't expect from first world nations for $1000, Alex.
Do you think it'd be more humane if they used larger explosives?
I think being designed to maim is but one of multiple problems with this approach, which would overall not be served by more explosives.
It looks like a pager. Yes, supply chain attack blah blah only purchased by Hezbollah folks. But if it gets stolen or found by a civilian, there is nothing about it to suggest it could be lethal or that they should leave it alone. It isn't just not marked as lethal, it's explicitly disguised as something mundane.
Hezbollah folks could be sitting next to an innocent civilian in any number of contexts.
Related to but distinct from my first point, there is an endless list of possible ways that a pager belonging to a hezbollah operative could wind up in the hands of an innocent, or in a position to harm an innocent instead of the target, and none of them are things that could be controlled or monitored for the fleet of explosive pagers. Once sold, there was literally no way to have any idea who would actually be harmed when the triggering page was sent.
Just call it terrorism perpetrated by a state actor, and we have no argument.
All of your problems are just one and the same: statistical probability of civilian casualties. And the nice thing with discussing the ethics of the choice to do it here is that we have the exact results. Around 2750 Hezbros hit with around 10 civilian deaths.
When they destroyed ISIS in Mosul 8 years ago, they turned that dial up all the way to a 1-on-1 ratio. 10.000 innocents for 10.000 Isibro's.
When they destroyed them in Raqqa, they went even higher, to around 1.5.
And if it makes you happy to call it 'terrorism' when you see civilian casualties, go ahead.
Their "success" was entirely down to luck, and all my problems were to illustrate the uncertainty built into every second that elapsed from the time they sold the pagers until the time they were detonated.
I think you overestimate the number of Lebanese that would steal pagers from Hezbollah.
As I said, the results just prove they made a good call (no pun intended) and with the large sample size luck just can't be a factor
"All of your problems boil down to the fact it's indiscriminate. Get over it. The problems end when you do."
You're describing what the Palestinians did to Israel on 10/7, and have continued doing this entire time, when they launch rockets at Israeli population centers.
Why does one side have population centers and the other human shields? It's wrong regardless.
One side at least wants to pretend to have military targets?
You know that is actually insightful to the PTSD that many IDF soldiers are experiencing.
I'm sure the IDF soldiers feel very bad about all the women and children that they've driven bulldozers over.
Didn't forget they're not allowed to rape POW's. And that's a perfectly fine reason to riot.
That's also bad. Both of the sides are bad, and the Palestinian civilians are caught in the crossfire.
I didn't realize that HAMAS was as large an organization as the Israeli government and armed forces.
We're also talking about a completely different country from Palestine that had nothing to do with any part of any of these conflicts, and even then, an indiscriminate terrorist attack on Palestinian civilians wouldn't be justified by HAMAS's terrorism. That's like saying that the US bombings on Iraqi civilians are justified by Al Qaeda's attack on the WTC on 9/11.
Hezbollah has been firing rockets into Israel for a year now. It's hard to claim they have nothing to do with any part of these conflicts
Hezbollah only exists because of Occupations and invasions by Israel
1982
Israeli Withdrawal
2006
2007 - Present
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/17/beyond-hezbollah-the-history-of-tensions-between-lebanon-and-israel
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Lebanese_conflict
It was created and grew popular to make Israel withdraw, but today it mainly exists to make sure Iran's interests in Lebanon are 'defended'.
No, it's still due to resistance against Israeli Occupations and defense against Israeli Invasion, which they did again, after bombing the Capital along with many other cities, killing thousands of civilians.
Yeah, after Hezbollah attacked them they're back. Good thing the Lebanese have Hezbollah to defend them from this cycle
And yet, that still doesn't justify killing civilians randomly.
And Israel has been running a military campaign to exterminate Palestine since the 1950s. It's hard to claim their hands are clean in any of these conflicts.
I still remember when they were offering Israeli citizenship with the purchase of former Palestinian homes to American Jews in the 2000s.
Claiming they were justified in attacking israel is very different from claiming they have nothing to do with the conflict though. If you feel that firing rockets at israeli civilians is fine and good, say that instead of pretending hezbollah was uninvolved
They were firing rockets into the Shebaa farms, which Israel acknowledged is not part of Israel. Israel started doing airstrikes into Lebanon and then Hizbullah retaliated.
This is a genocide on an incarcerated population, within an Apartheid State, founded on Ethnic Cleansing
Ethnic Cleansing is fundamental to Zionism
Settlements and Occupation
Israel justifies the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.
This type of settlement, where the native population gets 'Transferred' to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice.
The mass ethnic cleansing campaign of 1948:
Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967:
While the peace process was exploited to continue de-facto annexation of the West Bank via Settlements
The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.
Apartheid Evidence
Amnesty Report
Human Rights Watch Report
B'TSelem Report with quick Explainer
Visualizing the Ethnic Cleansing
Peace Process and Solution
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
One State Solution, Foreign Affairs
Historian Works on the History
Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History - Nur Masalha
The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948 - Nur Masalha
A History of Modern Palestine - Ilan Pappe
The Hundred Years' War on Palestine - Rashid Khalidi
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe
The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences - Avi Shlaim
The Biggest Prison on Earth: A History of the Occupied Territories - Ilan Pappe
The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-development - Sara Roy
10 Myths About Israel - Ilan Pappe (summery)
Say what you want about Americans, we have yet to respond to a terror attack with fucking genocide.