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Canada should move towards integration with Europe instead of the U.S. (www.policyalternatives.ca)

submitted 1 day ago by streetfestival@lemmy.ca to c/canada@lemmy.ca

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Trump warned he will impose additional tariffs on the European Union and Canada if they band together to “do economic harm” against the United States.

Get @#$%ed, Trump. Good read. Short but detailed about how partnered we are already and what our next priorities should be

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[-] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 9 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

Excellent article.

Main points for me:

Horizon Europe, digital sovereignty and technology, GDPR. YES! And absolutely we should be strengthening our privacy laws. We should be moving towards GDPR and we should be pushing for right to repair, etc.
Green Alliance, climate collaboration, and collaboration on the Arctic. YES! But see the impacts of CETA/ISDS/ICS too.
Freedom of movement. Yes, but: Europe's model of immigration has the opposite values than ours. We shouldn't let European phobic attitudes to immigration hamstring us from developing further ties, e.g., with the north african and sub-saharan francophonie. But we should definitely, absolutely further develop Erasmus+ and other EU-Canada youth exchange programs. And it should become extremely fluid and frictionless to recognize European professional credentials in Canada. An Italian doctor or a Greek nurse or a Spanish engineer or a German tradesperson should be able to start practicing in Canada within weeks at worst. EDIT: Also, linked with deepening research collaboration: Canadian temporary permits (study, work) should start to be recognized as means to expedite or eliminate EU visitor visas. We welcome fantastic international students who come from places Europeans over-scrutinize (the Maghreb, Africa, Iran, India, ...) and are in a disadvantage for research collaborations and/or research visits in the EU.
But I would be squarely against closer political and monetary integration with the EU. We absolutely do not need the Euro or the Stability and Growth Pact, and we do not need the various Orbans, LePens and Melonis, or the various debt-phobic Germans and Dutch having any kind of veto over our policies or say over our politics. The Norwegian, Swiss and Icelandic models are good models of EU-collaboration, and we can of course develop our own. We can be very very very good friends, but just like we don’t need to be anyone’s 51st state, we also don’t need to be anyone’s 28th member state.

Finally: for that matter, we should be looking for similar degrees of integration with Japan-Korea-Australia, etc. We are uniquely positioned to unite Pacific and Atlantic. To quote Carney: "if US no longer wants to lead, Canada will".

[-] AGM@lemmy.ca 4 points 3 hours ago

I have no interest in Canada joining the EU, which I see as having a bunch of governance problems of their own, but being close allies with well-integrated and mutually supportive economies via trade and other agreements sounds good to me.

Honestly, the idea floated that Canada would form a bloc with the UK, other commonwealth countries, and the EU, then have that bloc negotiate trade agreements with China sounds absolutely ideal to me. That's apparently already been raised by Carney in private talks on his visits to Europe and the UK. It would unite most of the world and cut the US off unless they changed course on their insane path. That's the foundation for a much more positive world order

[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 1 points 2 hours ago

Hmm. What level of integration do you think would be too close?

[-] AGM@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 hour ago

I don't want Canada under the EU governance system, and I don't think it's necessary to join the EU as a member just to have close and mutually supportive relations. Unless the Conservatives win today, we're still quite aligned with the EU in terms of values and commitment to similar international standards and goals, so I think we can form many trade agreements, cooperate on defense, and support similar international institutions, but just doing it with Canada as country that is a friend of the EU and not a member of the EU.

[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 1 points 1 hour ago

and I don’t think it’s necessary to join the EU as a member just to have close and mutually supportive relations.

It's really, really not. That's maybe the most important thing for everyone to know. Actually being a member is basically just a capstone on top of all the various kinds of coordination we could do, and several countries like Norway just opt not to take that last step.

[-] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 2 points 2 hours ago

Not speaking for OP, but here's what I wrote in another comment:

But I would be squarely against closer political and monetary integration with the EU. We absolutely do not need the Euro or the Stability and Growth Pact, and we do not need the various Orbans, LePens and Melonis, or the various debt-phobic Germans and Dutch having any kind of veto over our policies or say over our politics. The Norwegian, Swiss and Icelandic models are good models of EU-collaboration, and we can of course develop our own. We can be very very very good friends, but just like we don’t need to be anyone’s 51st state, we also don’t need to be anyone’s 28th member state.

[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 2 hours ago

That's reasonable. Honestly the difference between being Norway and being actually in the EU doesn't seem that huge to me.

The big thing we definitely need is defence guarantees. Eventually America is going to figure out they can't have us non-violently.

[-] AGM@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 hour ago

Yep. That's more or less how I feel.

[-] CircaV@lemmy.ca 6 points 15 hours ago

We’re done with the US but we’re also not joining the EU, although we have great allies there.

[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 1 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago)

That's weirdly definitive considering most Canadians would support the idea, if it were definitely possible.

[-] CircaV@lemmy.ca -1 points 2 hours ago

I support close ties with the EU but I don’t want Canada to join the EU. The EU has said it’s never going to happen either. A country in North America joining another continent?? Is silly. Having randos in Brussels make decisions for Canada?? No thank you.

[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 4 points 2 hours ago

The EU has said it’s never going to happen either.

When? I keep hearing this but I'm pretty sure no such statement has been made.

A country in North America joining another continent?? Is silly.

A little, yes.

Having randos in Brussels make decisions for Canada?? No thank you.

So, any level of integration is going to involve that. IIRC Even now we have to respect EU heritage foods designations as part of CETA.

[-] Goldholz@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 2 hours ago

I also dont want canada in the EU, but randos in brussels? Yes we need more democratication of the EU but you still elect the members of the parliament

[-] ImmersiveMatthew@sh.itjust.works 8 points 11 hours ago

You mean you are done with the US and you are not joining the EU and not all Canadians feel this way.

A national survey conducted by Abacus Data in late February 2025, involving 1,500 Canadian adults, revealed:

44% believe the Canadian government should “definitely or probably” explore joining the EU.
34% are opposed to the idea.
23% remain undecided.

[-] DicJacobus@lemmy.world 1 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago)

high level figures in the EU have repeatedly stated that while they appreciate the gesture, Canada wont ever be a member. So its best to abandon those pipe dreams. When it comes down to the details, the EU is a boys club for Western and Central Europe, they dont even treat their Eastern members as anything more than a buffer zone against the Russians,

the EU isnt flawless either, Russia has infiltrated it with trojan horse governments like the Hungarian Fidesz party and the Slovakian SMER party, who embezzle EU funds and politically roadblock motions with their veto. Canada trying to decouple with the US just to dive into the EU is like running from a burning house into a house with a basement meth lab.

[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago)

high level figures in the EU have repeatedly stated that while they appreciate the gesture, Canada wont ever be a member.

Who? I haven't heard anything so definitive.

When it comes down to the details, the EU is a boys club for Western and Central Europe, they dont even treat their Eastern members as anything more than a buffer zone against the Russians,

Lol, no. The east gets tons and tons of subsidies. It's the whole reason Orban still wants to be in the EU.

You'll also notice new eastern countries are lining up to join while euroskepticism has made headway in your "boy's club" countries.

the EU isnt flawless either, Russia has infiltrated it with trojan horse governments like the Hungarian Fidesz party and the Slovakian SMER party, who embezzle EU funds and politically roadblock motions with their veto.

Definitely true. The difference is that the US is terminal in a 1933 Germany way, while the EU seems like it might have a bright future.

[-] DicJacobus@lemmy.world 0 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago)

Referring to a statement made by Ursula von der Leyen's spokesperson Paula Pinho of March 2025

(“We are honored with the results of such a poll. It shows the attractiveness of the European Union, and it shows the appreciation of a very large share of Canadian citizens for the EU and its values,” said Paula Pinho, spokesperson for European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen, at the Commission’s Wednesday briefing, before adding that she “will not go into” a possible EU application from Ottawa.")

The extremely delayed reaction and infighting in European politics and society during what is essentially a code red / five alarm fire in the Russian invasion of Ukraine, has shown that many countries in the EU are willing to sacrifice another for time rather than face the reality that the EU and their way of life is directley being threatened, thus why we're seeing many countries in the EU having chosen to sit on their hands and wait, for YEARS at this point when the prospect of a third world war is closer than any other point in history other than the cuban missile crisis. When the chips are down, the EU for the longest time showed itself to be one that would rather point fingers, delay, and sacrifice others on the altar.

Polish farmers blocking NATO weapon shipments and railways to a critical combat theatre over a dispute with European markets and Ukrainian Grain, Hungarian vetos blocking EU financial packages to Ukraine, Ukraine has very much become a litmus test for countless issues worldwide, everything from testing the strength of alliances and unions, to testing the rationality and morality of individual people. and the EU has been taking one step forward one step back for much of it, It took them until the US basically took a turn into a terminal illness of fascism, for the major power players, namely France and Germany, to step forward and acknowledge that there can't be anymoe of this sitting on hands they played for the last 3-5 years as our world swirls the toilet bowl

in short, Yes, those eastern countries get subsidies, but its increasingly being seen as a bribe from one side to the other to keep them on the blue team. while hostile actors like the states with the parties I mentioned, just pocket the money while playing interference for the Russian mob state.___

[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 2 hours ago

Thanks. I'd say "will not go into" is decidedly neutral, though. Which isn't surprising, there's no point starting a big controversy when nothing is actually on the table yet.

[-] DicJacobus@lemmy.world 1 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

I dont think anyone from the EU is going to take concrete steps to a Canadian application, because they havent concretely ruled out that America wont physically invade it. Its an insane prospect, but this world is already insane.

Europe is already dealing with a hostile Russia, They can probably handle Russia alone, They can't handle Russia + America, so unless we're all ready to write it off and Blast each other with nuclear weapons, I think Europe has quietley agreed that if America does turn psycho, and the cost of keeping America Neutral, and not allied with Russia, is sacrificing Canada, they will Sacrifice Canada in a heartbeat. Officially, at least

Unofficially it will just be a fucking shadow war.

[-] Allemaniac@lemmy.world 2 points 3 hours ago

let me give you a counter argument as a german citizen:

The EU is still a union of a multitude of countries, all pretty different in their approach on geopolitics, economy and security. But we are a union that has brought peace for the longest time Europe ever had uninterupted. We aren't totally homogenous when it comes to values, but we align each other pretty well. Hungary, Slovakia, at times Poland (although since 2020 their rhetoric has been largely overlooked) are doing their best blocking progress, but they aren't really in a position to do so for much longer. Among european unionists and federalists there has also been talk about a multi-level EU model, where you don't have to 100% commit to EU regulations and laws, and still enjoy the benefit of the european singlemarket, possibly Schengen-Access, or at least visa free.

So, never say never ;)

[-] DicJacobus@lemmy.world 1 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago)

as others in this same thread have said.

Canada even in its crisis mode facing the prospect of a hostile America, with its whole Canada First, Elbows up rhetoric, is still -extremely- "americanized". Our ideas of Liberalism and Conservatism are very right wing compared to Europe, much like how the US republicans and democrats are both right wing compared to say, a German or French parliament.

it would take a very long time and a lot of pain and suffering in Canada to move away from the status quo. The NDP are the closest thing to a left wing party in this country and politically, they're on track to be absolutely eviscerated and effectively dismantled as a party in our election.

I "grew up" with people online since I was a teenager, I've visited Europe, I had close friends fromthe UK, Germany Poland and France, I've had relationships with people from Ukraine and a Portuguese born UK, I understand the European values and customs... the thing is, people like me are a minority even in Canada. Canadians have grown accustomed to a hybrid system thats kind of like Europe and Kind of like America, and they dont want to fully switch to one team or the other.

The problem is, that hybrid system is no longer tenable. and people are going to kick and scream for as long as possible before they realize they have to draw a line in the sand and choose a side.

[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 1 points 2 hours ago

Our ideas of Liberalism and Conservatism are very right wing compared to Europe

Sounds like you don't follow contemporary EU politics too closely, even if you've spent time there in the past.

[-] DicJacobus@lemmy.world 2 points 2 hours ago

The last time I set foot in Europe was in 2010, so it might as well have been a lifetime ago. the world as a whole of 2010 is completely alien compared to 2025

[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 1 hour ago

The far right is a major power bloc over there now, and centrist parties have become openly anti-immigrant and nativist in response. Canada's way ahead of Europe on tolerance at this point. Even in 2010 Merkel, for example, was plenty fiscally conservative, while Trudeau was elected later and expanded our own spending. There's other nations that are more interventionist, but Canada wouldn't be unusual. The far right is also anti-climate action, so we wouldn't be worst in class on that, although probably below average.

[-] DicJacobus@lemmy.world 1 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

European Far Right Politics are actively being influenced by Russian disinformation and cyber operations, "Human wave attacks" of Migrants being sent through Belarus on behalf of Russia and the puppet state's governments. and a mountain of homegrown and american shit online.

It might be Tim Pool, Elon Musk, or Jordan Peterson speaking it, but the hand controlling the Sockpuppet is usually smelling of vodka and caviar.

edit, I went off on a tangent here, so semi off topic from hereon out.

*The far right has resorted to sarcastically responding "RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA!" anytime foreign involvement in their shit is brought up, because its a nervous defensive tic, people are either knowing, or in denial, that an overwhelming amount of public discourse and disputes in the west can be directley traced back to the Kremlin, who essentially consider themselves to be at war with the west. and this is how they fight their war, because conventionally, The Ukrainians already showed us the Russians cant fight for shit in a shooting war.... *

Everyone laughed in 2022 and was like "holy shit, the russians dont know how to fight"... and then a depressing terrifying reality set in, "Holy shit... the russians dont know how to fight.... so if they ever do, they'll get fucking flattened, freak out, and resort to nukes..."

It started in 2014 and people seem to have forgotten what the term Hybrid Warfare means. because it never stopped even if Real full scale mechanized warfare started in 2022

[-] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 1 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago)

Russia has infiltrated it with trojan horse governments like the Hungarian Fidesz party and the Slovakian SMER party, who embezzle EU funds and politically roadblock motions with their veto

Unfair considering CIA infiltration of rest of EU. Not gaslighting their people with Russophobia warmongering is a sane position that has created FDI and growth exceeding rest of EU, as in rest of free (non US colonized) world.

At any rate, trade deals with EU is awesome to pursue. A political union with extreme hate groups who beg for greater US subservience to increase their hate is very dangerous for Canada to submit to. CIA control over all western democracies makes gaslighting on US resistance easy, and push comes to shove, EU would happily help destroy Canada if it gives them more US brownie points. EU faked interest in a trade deal with Ukraine in 2013, only to have US controlled (with EU puppet votes) IMF sabotage it, and assist in coup against Ukrainian president who trusted EU.

EU is simply not reliable, even if Canadians programming aligns with their current chaos. Canada wanting it more than EU is a recipe for failure.

[-] CircaV@lemmy.ca 0 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago)

JFC. You want some people in Brussels deciding stuff for us in Canada?? Fuck no.

I am 100% for close ties with the EU, trade and defense and travel and even work. But in terms of letting randos in Brussels decide on how we should run things for us??? No way.