super necessary if we expect anyone (outside of hobbyists) to even think of putting their content on the fediverse first or at the same time as other platforms
It‘s a two sided blade, but I get what you mean.
On one hand monetization is the thing that ruins platforms for me because it invites grifters and even decent people are becoming obsessed with numbers. Most people see content creation only as a career path and not something to do for fun anymore. I find that depressing at times.
On the other hand we currently live in a capitalist world and have to play by those rules to some extend. I learned most of the things I do for a living from Youtube because professionals do Blender tutorials as a side gig or even for a living. There probably wouldn‘t be nearly as much knowledge out there without this motivator. Or at least not in this form that is easy to understand for me. The official Blender documentation usually isn‘t the first place I‘m searching through when I have a problem.
So I see where you‘re coming from but it‘s a fine line between helpful and loathsome.
What if there was a federated platform for supporting the channels you like? Maybe something like Patreon? Or how about some sort of merch store for people who can sell the things they make?
You would still need a payment processor, which takes a huge chunk of the cake in fees.
Patreon kinda fits that, but I'm not sure about their open-sourceness
OpenCollective is a pretty solid open source contender in my experience. It's not perfect, but it's definitely workable.
After seeing your post on akkoma, I think I understand your point even better.
I want to support artists and would definitely buy music on fedi. I would rather just watch hobbyist make videos for peertube and especially for loops.
But if it means that it would help the platform stay afloat I am way more open to the idea of monetization beyond just donations.
Keep it away is my strong advice. Having to deal with banks will mean having to deal with regulations. Having to deal with crypto means having to deal with crytpo bros. Having to deal with paywalls is a barrier to entry
The internet was a better place without money touching everything!
I don't have strong feelings either way, but money does touch everything, overtly or not, when it comes to civilisation. Time spent volunteering on Fediverse projects is effectively money spent (at least to some degree), and instances cost time & fees to maintain.
But I guess to argue against myself-- you have to think that without some kind of ongoing responsible oversight, then the worst aspects of capitalism might predictably find a way to screw it all up if left to its own devices. Then again, maybe the scale involved makes that less likely. *shrug*
Having to deal with crypto means having to deal with crytpo bros
The internet was also a better place when people using it were more open minded
Client side support for a tipping link (Koffee, Patreon, crypto wallet, whatever the user's choice is) that is built in to the UI would go a long way.
Like what peertube has?
Nice, I dont use Peertube as often as I'd like because I haven't found the right creators for me. Good to know they already have this, should be an example to the rest of the platforms
I have high hopes for GNU Taler in that regard, as it is in theory super easy to include in any website and makes tipping small sums very feasible.
But in reality it is bogged down by bureocractic hurdles on the banking side, and I am starting to lose a bit of hope due to perpetual delays even after some banks promised to support it as part of an EU grant via Nlnet.
Maybe it's just nostalgia but in my opinion, with youtube it went all to shit the moment the money started to be involved. Algorithm chasing, advertisement, reactive content, sponsors, quickly generated videos, ... and all the other shit.
So if monetization, then let's try to avoid same mistakes
One seemingly enormous difference is that YT is a for-profit platform owned by a huge business (Google), not a decentralised network run by many small volunteers. FWIW.
I'm not sure if this translates to the content creators. There's many of them whom I really like to watch who do (or did) Youtube as a business model. Tom Scott being one example or Derek Muller (Veritasium). I'm subscribed to many more. Simplicissimus and their yet better second channel (in German). We wouldn't have those without monetization. The platform of course went shit over time. Fortunately my Ad blocker still works and thanks to Sponsorblock my experience is fairly alright... But personally - I'm split on this question. We had quite the amount of entertainment before monetization but I think a large amount of quality content also arrived after that, and because of it. Those people would be working some office job today if it wasn't to Youtube. And I (and the world) would miss out.... On the other hand we got MrBeast, a lot of fake cooking videos...
I don't think it was money that changed youtube, i think it was the algo, it now promotes viral content that for some reason has a persons face in the thumbnail with an exaggerated face :O
Yeah, the YouTube algorithm itself is a huge problem. I think about the fact that there are entire slop studios out there trying to ride algorithm trends, churning out crap to push onto YouTube Kids so that they'll do numbers and make a lot of money from it.
Like, I have nothing against the concept of a recommendation algorithm itself, but the relationship I just described is nightmare fuel.
Don't forget the instance operators! How can we get them more donations?
I recently found out about https://crowdbucks.fund (which is done for the Fediverse) and https://liberapay.com
Maybe a first step would be to offer a native way to link to such donation platforms (link on the user profile, link on each posting, ...)
Also donations for the instance should be promoted more prominent.
Been thinking similarly. Really think it would be the perfect place for crypto given its decentralised nature but the fediverse hates that. Also think we need to solve the portable identity problem first. We can solve the portable identity with did the same way ATProto solved it and blockchain are an excellent backend for that. Ideally we would use XMR as its objectively the best blockchain and objectively better than fiat.
Really happy to see this discussion here. Here is no "correct" path here, but is deeply important that the one we choose is intentional and thoughtfully considered by the folks these platforms serve
Both their audience and their contributors.
A free and direct tip system that doesn't force you to use credit cards would be quite useful
I tried to use a gift certificate to donate to dbzer0 last night. It didn't work because of a zip code field. I just want to look at cat pictures and make a snarky comment every so often without a facist paramilitary kicking in my front door. Fuck me, right?
Maybe this is a pipedream but I think mods should be paid for their labor.
Hey, um .... I read your article. Or I tried to.
It lost me at the point where I need to give money to somebody else. So, basically right at the start.
To be more specific, your article starts of lamenting that its not convenient enough for me to give money to someone ("content creators", a bullshit term if I've ever heard one) on these federated platforms. "this is a bit of a problem" There's no examination of whether we should be doing this. Its taken as a given that monetization is a positive goal.
So ... I really tried to get there and understand your point, but there's this vast gulf between us.
Why would it be bad if nobody makes any money off the fediverse?
That sounds good to me.
Not OP, but I'd work real fucking hard to give us something that can be a viable alternative to Youtube where a corporate monopoly doesn't take 95% of the cash. It doesn't even need to be federated, but we all see the shithole Odysee immediately became. We have a substantial number of people here with like interests and marginally like feelings on a lot of topics that would make great video content.
Peertube has been around for 7 years, and there isn't enough content on it to occupy even a Linux nerd for more than 30 minutes a week. People are only making videos on YouTube because they can make some semblance of a living at it.
I think giving people who are willing to create videos some decent tools for monetization in open products would be a reasonably good idea. We have nothing there now; we don't have anything to lose by it. It's not like great content that doesn't exist can be walled off to us.
This could be as easy as forking peertube and putting in patreon privitization links. Or it could be a federated version of KoFi that ties in.
Honestly the best YouTube alternative at the moment is Nebula. The problem is that it's a closed system. You can't just make an account and start uploading, you have to be invited. So the range of content is fairly limited compared to YouTube. But unlike many other platforms, it is designed to be fairly general-purpose. There are some excellent individual creators' platforms, like Dropout, Viva+, Club TWiT, etc. But you only get a single creator/team's videos on those. Dropout is improv comedy. Viva+ is sketch comedy. Club TWiT is tech news. Whereas Nebula is more of a coop owned by tens of different creators with content including news, media analysis (including film, games, and music), politics, science, short films, game shows, and more. It's not federated, but it's independent and worker owned-ish.
I often forget about nebula. I really do like their model. Personally, I think their biggest problem is lacking a free trial. They're curating, so I expect they'll have some pretty solid content. But every time I consider them I go and browse their catalog and I don't recognize most of it, and that what I do recognize is marginally interesting to me, but not worthy of payment.
I suspect their closed model is because it's very expensive to host that data, and they want to make sure that whoever they put up there is worth spending the money on. Return on investment, yada, yada.
I think their biggest problem is lacking a free trial
They have a 3 day free trial by default. And members can also give out a limited number of "guest passes" which act as a 1 week free trial.
I suspect their closed model is because it’s very expensive to host that data, and they want to make sure that whoever they put up there is worth spending the money on
That's probably part of it. It's also a marketing tactic. They're positioning themselves as a premium service. They want customers to know that if something is on Nebula it's going to be good. Similar to the way Apple positions themselves as premium by not selling a $200 smartphone, or Mercedez-Benz, or Louis-Vuitton.
It's also about trust. One of the things they're trying to do with Nebula is to provide creators a space to safely discuss controversial topics without censorship. But with that, along with the fact that they have a coop-type structure, comes the need to be able to trust that the people uploading on their platform aren't gonna be Nazis.
Well look at that, last time I checked it was guest pass or nothing. good move on their part!
I'll have to give them a shot after the holidays.
I'll be honest, if you've looked at their catalogue already and it didn't appeal to you, that's unlikely to change after a free trial. If you do end up signing up though, make sure to go through one of the creators' URLs. You get a much better price that way.
For me, when I first signed up for it 2 or 3 years ago, the thing that finally made me pull the trigger was Tom Scott's Money, the social game show that was, at the time, Nebula-exclusive. But there were probably 5 or 6 other channels I already regularly watched on YouTube too, like Wendover/HAI, Lindsay Ellis (who has since basically left YouTube and exclusively uses Nebula), and Patrick H Willems. And in the time since, they've added like 10 or more channels that I already watched on YouTube, such as Not Just Bikes, Angela Collier, TLDR News, Legal Eagle, and Tantacrul. It's also helped me rediscover creators I once watched but stopped for no particular reason, like Cult Tennis (which is fantastic even though I have no real interest in the sport of tennis otherwise) and Medlife Crisis; and new channels I first discovered thanks to Nebula, like CityNerd, Linus Boman, and ReligionForBreakfast; and channels I had seen once or twice on YouTube but never regularly watched, but Nebula made me realise are regularly putting out good stuff, like People Make Games (if you haven't seen it already, I assume their two videos about the Rockstar union busting are on YouTube and highly recommend those) and Razbuten.
Thanks for the thorough write-up.
It's not so much that it doesn't appeal; it's more like I'm looking at a menu in a foreign language.
I'm middle-aged, I like science, tech, retro, gaming, and whatever VLDL is. I am open-minded to new things, but prefer substance over screaming and outrage. I've spent a lot of time sifting through Odysee and Peertube for anything redeeming, and while I've not come up empty-handed, I've also not found enough content to offset my YouTube habit enough to walk away from the platform (my goal). The service is half the monthly price of Netflix, and while I don't expect a production company full of quality entertainment, I'd like to be able to fill a couple of hours a day with vaguely interesting programming.
I'll check em out post holidays pass and my finances recover.
I like science, tech, retro, gaming
You'll find a lot of that on Nebula. Though the "gaming" in particular is mostly limited to more video essays about gaming, analysis of gaming culture/game development, game design, etc. You're unlikely to find game tutorials, let's plays, etc. See channels like Extra Credits, People Make Games, and Razbuten for example. Or the gaming category. One thing I really like about Nebula as compared to Netflix-style "traditional" content streaming platforms is that you can browse their entire library without an account, exactly the same as you would with one.
VLDL
You'll find much less of that. Dropout might appeal to you though, if Viva does. Dropout is mostly improv comedy, often with a nerdy bent to it. "Um, Actually" is particularly good. I think there's probably some scripted content on Dropout too, more akin to Viva's stuff.
but prefer substance over screaming and outrage
You will definitely get this on Nebula. While some of their creators do use rather clickbaity titles and thumbnails, that's predominantly because they just use the same title & thumbnail that they have on YouTube, and the unfortunate reality is that that's necessary to get clicks to satisfy the YouTube algorithm. The actual content though is always more considered. It's one of the defining things about the platform, and it's part of why they're invite-only for creators.
The service is half the monthly price of Netflix
It's $60 annually for a naked sign-up, but $36 annually if you go through a creator's code. Any creator. There's literally no reason to ever pay the higher number. That's $3 per month, though at that price I find it easier to talk about the annual cost than monthly.
Plus, when they last increased prices in September 2024, they also guaranteed existing customers could keep their older prices. They didn't guarantee that will be true for future new signups on future price increases, but that seems likely.
I don't agree, really ... that'd limit the Fediverse to hobbyists.
It's completely legitimate to look for income & exposure as a creator, whether you're making music, visual art, or document your process making physical objects. Corporate platforms, as crappy as they might be, provide a path to that, and in many ways created viable path for creators to do what they like full-time. Not saying that it's perfect or easy. But the Fediverse is currently no alternative at all ...
Currently, restricting yourself to the Fediverse as an artist unfortunately means that you're taking quite a hit in terms of exposure you can get. As long as that's the case, and people even defend it, then we really can't complain that the Fediverse isn't attractive for a larger amount of people, and centralized platforms will always have the bigger draw.
I try to avoid corporate platforms as much as I can, but as a consumer I often feel starved of content. I haven't found any interesting woodworking channels on PeerTube, or guitar repair channels, or whatever else I enjoy watching to wind down.
And as a creator, well ... it's not my source of income, but I sure would like it to be. And if I ever decide to make that step, I'm pretty sure that I's have to make amends to my "no corporate platforms" approach. The Fediverse doesn't feed you.
Ok. I can follow this line of reasoning.
If you want to avoid corporate platforms, fediverse doesn't provide as viable an alternative as one might like.
This is clear, and makes sense. Thanks for the succinct explanation. At least I see some sense here now.
I'm not entirely sure that it matters.
Like, when was it decided that the 'making money' bit needed to be imported from YouTube?
The "making money" bit doesn't need to be imported, necessarily. It's not an end unto itself. But if we want a large amount of high-quality content, while society is capitalistic, then it does. Because high-quality content takes a lot of time to produce, and not many people can afford to do it as a hobby. The scenario you're describing means that who have the skills to do it could do it while making money on YouTube or Patreon, or they could do it for free on the fediverse while not making money (or making money in a more conventional job, creating the stuff that we love them for only in their spare time—limiting the quantity they can produce).
I doesn't "need" to be imported, the question is just, where do we see the future of federated (non-)platforms ? Do we want them to be "small and cozy" with a small and fairly narrow selection of content or do we want a non-corporate alternative that can compete in richness and variety of interesting content of all niches?
A lot of folks only seem to see the crappy part of youtube and other platforms, and don't see the richness of content that exists ther. There's still so much interesting stuff to be found. I don't think there has ever been a bigger archive of, say, documentation about arts, crafts, history, food, than YT, even it its current enshittified form. If that's an ocean of content, the Fediverse isn't even a major river (at least that's my impression).
If you don't mind that, great. But I do, I'd love a non-corporate version to exist that can compete in terms of richness of content.
And monetary incentive is part of the puzzle, as it incentivizes people to spend time on it, which in terms generates a bigger audience, which in turn has a higher potential to support a wider range of content niches. Plain and simple.
Well, the more of youtube we import ... the more of youtube we import. Part of the reason we aren't flooded with crap on the fediverse is that we are too small to matter. And perhaps we are small enough to effectively police our own. So ... why would we want to import youtube at all? Bigger is not better.
The advantage of the fediverse is how well it should be able to scale, thanks to its federated nature. A big part of the problem with YouTube is that its large scale but centralised nature means that they just throw AI at the moderation problem, and it is infamously terrible. Censoring important conversations and sensitive subjects, while letting through actual child abuse. And because it's centralised, users (both viewers and creators) don't have an easy option to turn somewhere else without losing the whole network effect.
It's compounded by the fact that the majority of monetisation on there is driven by advertising. Direct funding via a Patreon-like model (optional payment to receive some minor bonuses, primarily for supporting the creator), a Nebula-style model (subscription to access content), or a BATish model (forget most of the actual details of BAT, especially the crypto, but imagine a system—which could be voluntary or mandatory depending on the individual system, creator, or piece of content—in which users stick a bunch of money into a wallet, and it is automatically shared with the creators whose content they are viewing in some fair manner). Not having actual advertisements, combined with better, more local moderation decisions, would help stave off the biggest problems with YouTube.
Thanks for bringing it up. Nobody likes to talk about money in the Fediverse, but it's a fact of life.
I've stopped making Peertube videos lately mainly because I got tired of donating. We've got to come up with a better solution.
If you allow artists to display their work in various communities along with the ability to post links in their profiles, but you restrict actual posts to disallow self-promotion, it's the best of both worlds, IMO.
In other words, if you can't include self-promotion in your community posts, but everyone knows you have the links in your profile, it attracts less grifters and keeps the feed clean, while allowing anyone interested to contact a poster directly or ask them promotional questions via DMs.
That said, hosting a full-fledged marketplace is not a good idea, IMO. There are laws and banks involved, which mean lawyers and taxes, and volunteer management does not work for that. There are already marketplaces that do that well, and allowing artists to post their own links of choice in their profiles will let them steer actual business to other platforms, while keeping the fediverse for display, review, share and critique. My opinion, anyway.
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