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So state-capitalism is socialism? (lemmy.ml)
submitted 2 months ago by Confidant6198@lemmy.ml to c/communism@lemmygrad.ml
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Source: https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/ichtci/11.htm

Full pamphlet (Marxists.org): https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/ichtci/index.htm

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[-] yogthos@lemmygrad.ml 36 points 2 months ago

Basically it's a stage of development where the dictatorship of the proletariat has been established, but the existing capitalist relations have not yet been abolished. This is a good explanation of what socialism means in Marxist terms. https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/3228-lenin-s-three-theoretical-arguments-about-the-dictatorship-of-the-proletariat

[-] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 26 points 2 months ago

It is more accurate to say that socialism is "state capitalism" under the dictatorship of the proletariat.

[-] darkernations@lemmygrad.ml 17 points 2 months ago

It is more accurate to say that socialism is “state capitalism” under the dictatorship of the proletariat.

I like the term with the qualifier you mentioned because it forces marxists to consider the dialectics of what it means to build socialism.

[-] davel@lemmygrad.ml 14 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I think it was a mistake to have coined the term “state capitalism” in the first place. By Marxism’s own meaning of “state” and Marxism’s own meaning of “capitalism,” “state capitalism” is an oxymoron. Whatever Lenin meant by it, it must have been something different from the sum of its parts, and all that has accomplished is confusion.

States, as the creators of money by fiat, are not animated by the M-C-M’ motive. They introduce arbitrary amounts of M into the economy by spending it into existence.

[-] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Lenin's did not come with it, the above quote is the refutation for ultras. That term itself comes from Engels and Wilhelm Liebknecht.

[-] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 11 points 2 months ago

I agree, it's a misleading term.

[-] amemorablename@lemmygrad.ml 11 points 2 months ago

I wonder, is the original quote even in English or in Russian? Because if it's in Russian originally, the translation could have messed up on the equivalent meaning in Russian somehow, causing it to seem more confusing than intended.

[-] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 11 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

The original is Russian because Lenin only wrote theory in Russian. He did speak multiple languages, including German, French and a bit of English, and he probably used them in personal correspondence with other European revolutionaries, but his official books and articles are only in Russian, afaik.

[-] amemorablename@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 1 month ago

Okay, thanks for clarifying that. I was trying to do a cursory look into his language(s) before writing my comment to make sure I wasn't talking out of my ass, but found he spoke multiple languages as you say, so wasn't sure.

[-] senseamidmadness@lemmygrad.ml 25 points 2 months ago

Every time someone says China isn't socialist or that they abandoned M-L thought I am gonna send this meme

[-] RedWizard@hexbear.net 16 points 2 months ago

Socialism is the transitional phase between capitalism and communism. In places like Russia at the time of their revolution they did not have an industrial base when compared to places like Europe. There was still peasant farming for example. The NEP was Lenin's attempt to build that base. Similar lessons were learned in China.

[-] Pathfinder@lemmygrad.ml 15 points 1 month ago

IIRC the precise language (translated into English) that China uses to describe itself is “a mixed transitional economy governed by the dictatorship of the proletariat”, and I think that works pretty well.

this post was submitted on 13 Dec 2025
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