Marx loved markets that’s why his name shares three letters.
He loves them so much "Marx" is just his cool hip abbreviation for "markets"
This is outright lying with statistics. The majority of traders on U.S. stock exchanges (95%+) are individual traders. They just use a clearing house that does the trading for them because it's cheaper and faster.
Yeah, but I don't think, that was the point of the meme. It was just about making fun of tankies.
i thought it was making fun of US capitalism where socialism is used as an invective.
Nah it wasn’t it was making fun of the concept of “Marxist Leninist Stock Exchanges” implying that its just “state capitalism”.
Btw, happy cake day.
A mutual fund buys and sells on behalf of the consumer so individuals don't have voting rights.
Also wrong. You can vote if you buy stocks themselves and not mutual funds.
Also wrong.
Only 21% of Americans directly own stock.
https://www.fool.com/research/how-many-americans-own-stock/?msockid=3cc1caf3010a68e612d9dc83002769e8
You can't say a statement is wrong by agreeing with it. You just said that they use clearing houses. The majority of stock ownership in the US is through mutual funds and other similar products where individuals cannot vote.
You can vote if you buy stocks themselves and not mutual funds.
I said people who buy mutual funds can't vote you muppet.
By volume, right?
95% of volume is done by individual traders?
Surely
This is why I don't fuck with that. That and the memestock nonsense. I could tell you a high volume stock strike on Fridays by calculating how much corruption it took for market makers to not lose their ass. It's all rigged and disgusting. They'll drop a nuke on someone if their son in law can make a million.
The majority of traders on U.S. stock exchanges (95%+) are individual traders.
Absolutely need a source for that one. Sounds wrong on both volume of $ and volume of trades.
.ml collectively shits pants
There are two types of tankie. They either a) are very good at selectively ignoring what they’re not supposed to see or b) not true believers and are just trolling for the lolz
You forgot the third type: use dialectical materialism to analyze the world and understand what's going on around them instead of using idealist and moral thinking like "markets bad", allowing them to have nuanced understandings of why a revolutionary state would have a stock market.
nuanced understandings
stock market
you're a fucking parody of yourself, and it's fucking hilarious.
So weird, right? It's almost like you have a... a sort of reaction... a knee-jeek reaction maybe... to the concept of a stock market. It's almost like we differ not by ideology but by the fact that one of us is curious enough to research and analyze what appear to be contradictions and understand them in their historical and world systems context and the other is a reactionary.
Yeah, I react to the idea of a capitalist economy being a good idea. Don't fuck with me, tankie, your debate bro bullshit isn't thought out, and you aren't an intellectual. You're a fucking slave with Stockholm.
use dialectical materialism
AKA, mental gymnastics.
Unrelated to the discussion, but dismissing dialectical materialism like that is a bit harsh. It is still very prominent in international relations critical theory, for example. I even learned about Marxism and dialectical materialism in my highschool politics class, lol
It takes mental gymnastics to call tankies both dogmatic book worshippers and simultaneously people who can accept a Chinese stock market into their understanding of revolutionary theory.
Nobody ever said tankies are good at theory. It's not complicated: Tankies dogmatically worship the biggest state that calls itself communist and pretend it's doing what the books say.
Internal contradictions are akshually totally good and not evidence of ideological impurity!
I love that your standard is ideological purity! It's like you're a textbook case of what not to do.
evidence of ideological impurity!
It doesn't matter if the cat is black or white, so long as it catches mice.
"Ideological purity" first off, isn't really a thing in Marxism-Leninism, because Marxism-Leninism explicitly calls for adapting policies to specific material conditions. To the extent that people have tried to pursue an "ideologically pure" version of it, it generally hasn't worked so well. The Great Leap Forward, for example.
Now, one would think that China learning from its past mistakes and adapting policy in such a way that 700 million people get lifted out of extreme poverty would be seen as a good thing. And one would think that if someone didn't see this move as a good thing, then they must prefer China's pre-reform policies when they didn't have billionaires and a stock market. Yet somehow, y'all seem to just blindly hate China regardless of what kind of policy they implement.
It kinda seems like what we are dealing with is an anticommunist ideological framework that can transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence, a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum.
Yet somehow, y’all seem to just blindly hate China regardless of what kind of policy they implement.
As an anarchist, I dont hate China specifically, I just hate states in general. So as long as the chinese state doesnt implement policies to abolish itself, I will always have something to critize.
Well, the funny thing about that is that Chinese state has actually done that. Or Mao did, anyway.
See, Mao feared that the government was going to follow the same reformist path as the USSR, so he issued a series of declarations saying that the government had been infiltrated by bourgeois elements, that the people of China had a "right to rebel," and finally calling on them to "Bombard the Headquarters."
These declarations created a period of violence and disorder known as the Cultural Revolution, where independent, student-led militias known as Red Guards formed and started fighting whoever they suspected of being counter-revolutionary. With no command structure, they often wound up fighting each other, when they weren't committing atrocities.
Ironically, all this did was discredit this approach and convince a lot of people of the necessity of the reforms they were meant to prevent, and of the central government.
Of course, there were another time in Chinese history where China lacked a strong central government. After the fall of the Qing, there was no central government at all. This is generally referred to as the warlord period, and it sucked so bad that the communists and nationalists put aside their differences to try to end it. Unfortunately, China remained largely decentralized, which allowed the much smaller but more centralized nation of Japan to invade and kill tens of millions of people.
If you don't read theory/study history, it's easy to just rail against authority and centralization from an idealist perspective, but if you actually study China's history and conditions, you'll find reasons for every path they've chosen.
You understand that if China were to do that today, it would immediately be vassalized, neoliberalized, and plundered by the imperial core, just as the dissolved Soviet states were 35 years ago, right? That life expectancies would plummet and poverty would become rampant?
Until imperialism (“the highest stage of capitalism”) is dismantled, socialist states are necessary. Basically, nearly everyone has to reach socialism before anyone can reach communism, because capitalism, as long as it continues to exist, will never stop trying to expand. You can’t wish your way immediately to the end-goal. You will surely fail.
How about kind of afraid it might be impossible to hold out against imperialist capitalism without some degree of nasty repressive shit.
Skill issue.
What about the ones that turn off their mind and start regurgitating unrelated talking points?
I feel like that's just a subset of type A.
There are a lot of ways to be "good" at ignoring what you are not supposed to see. Turning your brain off is a pathway to many abilities some consider unnatural.
China is building socialism by the year 2352 you have to trust the process
This we get to have cyberpunk 2077 in real life, so I am thankful to the CCP.
https://impactwealth.org/chinese-stock-market-a-deep-dive-into-the-6-trillion-meltdown/
I mean, I can keep going, literally every article about investing in the Chinese stock market shows its risk. If this trace of propaganda has any truth to it, maybe its composition is just a reflection on who is being left and targeted. Yeah, yeah, I know, "West press is biased" (Al Jazeera?) but that's what you get with such deeply rooted suppression of free speech in China. Even Trump era press is still better even if US press is rapidly dropping to that level.
It's almost like MLs aren't dogmatic and don't need to assess everything by whether or not it's approved by specific authors
There is being undogmatic and there is just doing capitalism but in red.
I guess I need to level up my imagining a pathway to better world skills.
Seize the Memes of Production
An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of the “ML” influence of instances like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad. This is a place for undogmatic shitposting and memes from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.
Rules:
Be a decent person.
No racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, zionism/nazism, and so on.
Other Great Communities:
