I think it's cool trying to figure out a way to do this without google, but it still won't solve the fact that credit card payments aren't private and are linked to your identity. As always cash is the way to go.
Also if you are still going to have a credit card (I mean fare I have one too) why not just use a physical card rather than paying on your phone?
i'm just guessing here but i think that the critical requirements to be able to run banking apps securely on your smartphone are:
the first two parts are general smartphone/laptop security and operating system integrity, which can only be done through hardware/general software developers. Like i think we need reliable hardware manufacturers but also institutions that check that open source software doesn't contain malware. Like when you run apt install some-package who says that some-package doesn't contain malware?
The third one is the only part that is actually specific to banking. That's a whole separate topic and has barely anything to do with the first two steps.
quality control of the operating system to make sure it doesn't contain malware/spyware
if uou l9ok around, you should see that is not a requirement
Like when you run apt install some-package who says that some-package doesn’t contain malware?
The Debian (or Ubuntu) package maintainer says that. Having an application package available in a distro's official repository is an endorsement of the safety of that package.
This is something people need to appreciate before they go adding PPAs and flatpaks and whatnot willy-nilly.
interesting.
lockable/unlockable bootloader
quality control of the operating system to make sure it doesn’t contain malware/spyware
#1 without #2 is unsafe.
#2 doesn't exist in android because of apps and vulnerabilities
Apple at least makes a good run at it.
Part of androids locking shit down is to try to make their own run at it.
I honestly think we're all just going about it wrong. Make a new physical sim that is unclonable, undumpable, ultimately secure. Have it key sign financial transactions require a pin and have a physical button. If you don't touch the button and have the pin, it won't process a transaction.
I often wonder why physical authentication devices can't just be a usb storage device with a physical read only switch. The user keeps it read only except when interacting to add an authetication with a provider. Of course ideal it would be in person and all services would have physical locations.
Read only doesn't cover what's needed. You need something that holds a keys that cannot be extracted. Ideally, the institution sends it a challenge, it signs the challenge and returns it. You need the keys not to be retrievable.
I can shop online on a fucking toaster.
hmm do you have a link to the product?
What i wanted to say: a webshop having poor safety standards, can cost a honest customer 1000s. But nobody makes much security theater there. But for banks, you suddenly have to be not rooted, allow a virus scan, have a locked bootloader, best a face scan and a chip implant too. Despite banking apps using webview too.
yeah well it's all about who carries the risks i'd say. i think that if you're willing to take the risk yourself, you should be allowed to install a banking app on any device. just beware the risk, and you need to be warned about those.
GrapheneOS is critical of this initiative here and I think their criticism has merit. This simply moves the gatekeeper from Google to a handful of OEM's who won't let you use anything other than their blessed OS's.
I'd say if you have more alternative gatekeepers, that means you have more options and that gives the user more power (to choose).
Or we can back an option without a gatekeeper...
sure we can, the only question is who's legally liable if things go wrong
Has the GrapheneOS team ever, once, been supportive of ANY other custom ROM initiative? I ask this as someone with both a GOS Pixel10 and a FairPhone 6 running /e/ on my desk this week.
For as good as their security approach is, their constant shit talking of others also making efforts to free us from big tech helps no-one.
Oh the irony of using the phrase "blessed OS's" coming from the GOS camp.
I wouldn't characterize myself as "the GOS camp" (I use LineageOS) I just happen to agree with them sometimes, and this is one of those times.
I do imagine this response is to some degree influenced by their beef with /e/ (an OS I don't have a high opinion of either, but for other reasons). It just seems to me that people see "not google" and think it's a good thing, but a gatekeeper determining which OS you are allowed to use with what apps is fundamentally a bad idea even if it's not google.
Yeah it seems they really let perfect be the enemy of the good.
Agree. This type of systems are not even necessary.
One or more neutral organizations could exist certifying devices and operating systems without providing a centralized API. Those organizations could simply provide signed releases with the roots of trust, revoked keys and operating system key fingerprints. Apps could use multiple different certifying organizations. This is already something Android's hardware attestation API fully supports today.
Then why doesn't GrapheneOS offer that alternative to banks etc
Because you can't unilaterally just save credit card information and use it for payments. Your bank has to support and approve the app/service.
Furthermore, a peer review process is planned, through which the consortium members will mutually check and certify their operating systems and smartphone or tablet models. “This is intended to create transparency and replace trust with traceability.”
Still doesn't sound very open.
I should be able to tell my bank to only trust devices running an OS signed by the grapheneos key, and more importantly I should be able to tell them to trust an OS signed by my key.
Edit: I don't mean to shit on this too hard. It might be the best next step.
It is kinda insane though that we've had public/private keys since the internet started walking and somehow we end up with all these over-complicated or pointless ways to use them.
Decentralized systems are more difficult to understand, and also inconvenient.
Also, very hard to monetize.
Therefore, capitalism converts the issue into walled garden approach. Easy for rubes to use, nobody bats an eye.
I don't get why it has to be that complicated anyway. I should be able to just give them my key, why does a OS or device vendor need to be a part of it? When I get a card I need to verify my identity somehow, times past that was me going to the bank, signing a form and showing my ID card. Fucking Tim Apple or Satya McGoogle didn't have a role in that, why should they now?
Sidenote; I know Satya Slopella is Microsoft but I don't frankly care to learn what the pedo in charge of Google is called.
When I get a card I need to verify my identity somehow, times past that was me going to the bank, signing a form and showing my ID card. Fucking Tim Apple or Satya McGoogle didn’t have a role in that, why should they now?
The government did though in supplying said ID, so there was a centralised trustable organisation that the bank could depend on for verification.
Exactly. After that, the bank should accept that I wish to pay with my own device without Google, Apple, or Samsung having a say.
They don’t need GAS approval for me to pay my bills on my computer. Nor to make online purchases on it. Why is it suddenly required on my phone? It’s idiotic.
If I say that my device is okay, that’s all that should be required.
I see this topic come up often in conversations about degoogled Android and it makes me wonder what if anything I'm missing out on by just using cash/card for payments, cause not once have I been at checkout and thought to myself "man, I wish I could do this with my phone instead" but people talk about this like it's almost a dealbreaker that makes it hard for them to seriously consider switching to Graphene or Lineage or whatever.
My bank (Monzo) doesn't even offer an alternative way to interact or sign up except through the smartphone app.
FWIW, Monzo works on Lineage OS with no gapps. I can't use google pay but I have a card for that.
Unfortunately there is a significant security advantage in using Google Pay or Apple Pay which no one has yet mentioned. When you make a payment with chip-and-PIN using your physical card, your real card number is exposed to the merchant. The proprietary wallet services on the other hand use a device-specific token in place of the card number.
In practice, this means that if a retailer is compromised, there’s no usable card data to steal or clone, which removes a large class of fraud that still exists with physical cards.
In a lot of counties banks are becoming mobile first. Want to login in the browser? Authenticate with your mobile app to approve. Don't have a mobile phone with the requisites of the bank? Well, go to the branch, take a ticket, wait and then tell them what you want to do with your money. It's not just about paying, banks are moving online authentication to be dependent on Google or Apple, whatever poison you pick.
This seems like same shit different flies. Still dependent on some centralised approval which doesn't help openness and security. We need alternatives to the duopoly but this ain't it, chief.
Right there with you. Access to my money relying on a device that needs to be charged is just stupid. I'm stranded somewhere, my phone runs out of battery, suddenly I have zero dollars. No thanks.
I agree, it’s a nice-to-have but it’s far from necessary. I like having the option as a backup in case I forget my wallet, but I’ll live without it
This is huge. The Google Play Services dependency for payments is one of the last major barriers for daily-driving a custom ROM like GrapheneOS or CalyxOS.
Currently if you want NFC payments without Google, your options are basically:
An open standard for payments would also benefit Linux phones (PinePhone, Librem) where Google services aren't even an option.
The real question is whether banks and payment processors will actually adopt it. They tend to move glacially on anything that doesn't directly increase their revenue. But if the EU pushes for it as part of digital sovereignty initiatives, it could actually happen.
Honestly if there was an alternate and functional phone/OS/app store that early adopters who are a little technical can embrace, it would be the #1 platform in under 5 years. People in the know are chomping at the bit to get away from these big monopolzed platforms, and once it gains steam and polish, people will flock to it.
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