114
submitted 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) by yogthos@lemmygrad.ml to c/worldnews@lemmygrad.ml

A beak down of how Ukraine and the West lost yesterday with the ICJ ruling on Ukraine v. Russia.

Ukraine and the West defended the view under which Russia supported terrorist activities and committed racial discrimination in Crimea.

  1. the Court reaffirmed that an organization cannot be considered to be 'terrorist' just because one State labels it this way. The Court insisted that for Russia to be liable for 'funding of terrorist groups' it needs at least to be present the «element of "knowledge"», i.e., that a "group has previously been characterized as being terrorist in nature by an organ of the United Nations".

The accusation that Russia should be responsible for sponsoring acts of terrorism in Crimea fell completely, not only given to this, but also because "it is not enough for deliberate killings or serious bodily injury to civilians to have occurred".

  1. the Court considered that, contrary to Western and Ukrainian allegations, Russia cannot be found liable for facilitating any terror activity against Ukraine as the State did not have "reasonable grounds to suspect that the accounts, bank cards and other financial instruments listed therein were used or allocated for the purpose of committing the offences under Article 2 of the ICSF".

In the end, Ukraine's allegations were considered to be based on documents with "vague and highly generalized descriptions of the acts".

  1. ICJ only considered that Russia violated its "obligation of a State party to the ICSFT to investigate allegations of the commission of terrorism financing offences by alleged offenders present in its territory" for one reason: "the Russian Federation provided no clarification as to the precise additional information that was required" and did not "specify to Ukraine what further information may have been required".

This understanding of the Court ignored the fact that it also recognised that Russia started investigations and provided "results of investigations into two of the alleged offenders" and concluded that about the other persons, they either “d[id] not exist in the Russian Federation” or their location could not be identified".

So, this was the only reason why 13 judged considered that the Russian Federation has violated its obligation under Article 9, paragraph 1, of the International Convention for the Suppression of the Financing of Terrorism.

In the end, this was the ONLY 'violation' found by the Court and it is highly disputable.

  1. The Court also affirmed that the evidence provided by Ukraine did "not establish that the Russian Federation failed to effectively investigate whether the acts complained of by Ukraine amount to racial discrimination".

  2. The Court was also "not convinced that the Russian Federation has engaged in law enforcement measures that discriminate against persons of Crimean Tatar origin based on their ethnic origin".

  3. The ICJ depreciated Ukraine's "witnesses", saying that "witness statements which are collected many years after the relevant events, especially when not supported by corroborating documentation, must be treated with caution".

Thus, the Court found "that the reports relied on by Ukraine are of limited value in confirming that the relevant measures are of a racially discriminatory character", reason why it concluded "that it had not been established that the measures taken by the Russian Federation against the members of the Mejlis were based on the ethnic origin of the persons concerned".

  1. The Court also concluded "that Ukraine has not provided convincing evidence that the ban of the Mejlis was based on the ethnic origin of its members, rather than its political positions and activities", reason why Russia's decisions were racially motivated.

  2. Once again, the ICJ ignored that there was "discrimination against Crimean Tatars and ethnic Ukrainians based on their ethnic origin", as Ukraine only relied on "the difficulty faced by the persons concerned when choosing between the legal consequences of adopting Russian citizenship or retaining Ukrainian citizenship".

In the end, the Court considered "that those legal consequences flow from the status of being either a Russian citizen or a foreigner".

  1. The Court also noted "that the Russian Federation has provided explanations [and] there is evidence that certain ethnic Ukrainian and Crimean Tatar organizations have in fact been successful in applying to hold events and that multiple events organized by ethnic Russians have been denied."

Meaning that Russia had a fair treatment with everyone regardless of their origin.

  1. One more time, the Court could "not find that the measures taken against Crimean Tatar and Ukrainian media outlets were based on the ethnic origin of the persons affiliated with them."

In the West, what we hear is always different.

  1. The Court said that "even considering that many ethnic Ukrainian families left Crimea after 2014" it was "not convinced that this, together with the reorientation of the Crimean school system towards Russia, can alone account for a reduction of more than 90 per cent of genuine demand in Crimea for school instruction in the Ukrainian language".

Still, the Court decided to conclude that Russia "has violated its obligations of the International Convention on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination". Why?

Because, although the Court was "unable to conclude, on the basis of the evidence presented, that parents have been subjected to harassment or manipulative conduct aimed at deterring them from articulating their preference"...

... Russia "has not demonstrated that it complied with its duty to protect the rights of ethnic Ukrainians from a disparate adverse effect based on their ethnic origin by taking".

Earlier, the ICJ assumed it was not enough to have witnesses' declarations by themselves, but now they actually matter because Russia wasn't able to prove the contrary?

The Court could not continue on this track of acquit Russia from all the accusations, reason why even after it recognized that Russia did not want to eliminate Ukrainian heritage, the ICJ has come to this conclusion.

  1. The Court was "not convinced, based on the evidence before it, that the incidents with regard to school education in the Crimean Tatar language constitute a pattern of racial discrimination".

In the end we can only conclude that the two violations "found" by the ICJ were, in fact, too fragile and highly disputable to be counted as real and serious violations committed by the Russian Federation.

Finally, the Court also noted "that the Russian Federation has produced evidence substantiating its attempts at preserving Ukrainian cultural heritage and has provided explanations for the measures undertaken with respect that heritage".

top 30 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[-] 201dberg@lemmygrad.ml 94 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

If they actually do rule Ukraine as performing a genocide then holy shit it's going to be amazing watching the liberals loose their fucking minds.

Meanwhile all us MLs will have to watch our smug levels. Being THIS right all that time can potentially cause deadly levels of "smug" to accumulate in the body.

[-] OrnluWolfjarl@lemmygrad.ml 43 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

If they actually do rule Ukraine as performing a genocide then holy shit it's going to be amazing watching the liberals loose their fucking minds.

They won't lose their minds really.

If the ICJ rules against Russia, it's because it's brave. If it rules for Russia, it's because it's bribed. (is what the idiots will keep saying)

[-] lil_tank@lemmygrad.ml 20 points 9 months ago

Big third world countries like Russia or China have infinite money and intelligence to bribe anybody and are so influencial that no one go against them

The US and Europe definitely don't have infinite money, and definitely no intelligence, and most importantly no Historical ties or influence over any foreign or international organisation

[-] OrnluWolfjarl@lemmygrad.ml 14 points 9 months ago

No no, of course the West has money and power because it's the best and has the superior civilization. But it doesn't use that money and power to apply pressure because the West are the good guys, and they have honor.

[-] lil_tank@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 9 months ago

I stand corrected, thank you fellow free thinker of the glorious ~~colonial empire~~ Western Civilization©

[-] OrnluWolfjarl@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 9 months ago

You are welcome you ~~filthy traitor~~ filthy traitor

[-] redtea@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 9 months ago

It's amazing the West has stayed on top, really.

[-] Soul_Greatsword@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 9 months ago

Eventually loves it when the scrappy underdog comes out on top!

[-] supersolid_snake@lemmygrad.ml 17 points 9 months ago

Yep, cults usually double down rather than snap out of it.

[-] SoyViking@hexbear.net 14 points 9 months ago

If the ICJ rules against Russia, western media is going to report it a d add it to their repertoire of "Russia bad" bits. If the ICJ rules for Russia they're never going to mention it again.

[-] davel@lemmygrad.ml 39 points 9 months ago

It was my intellectual humility that allowed me to claw my way out of a lifetime of liberal indoctrination, and I hope not to lose it.

[-] Aria@lemmygrad.ml 37 points 9 months ago

The ICJ is a political organisation and doesn't make rulings that are incompatible with the will of its master. So they won't conclude that Ukraine was committing a genocide. But if I am wrong, and the ICJ does end up ruling that way, then the liberals will simply not accept their authority and impartiality. They already completely ignore all international law when it comes to the situation in Yemen and The Red Sea.

[-] ComradePupIvy@lemmygrad.ml 37 points 9 months ago

I mean the ICJ has suprised me before. Most notably the Isn'treal case, not that the outcome is all I was hoping it was better.

That being said any court ruling the west will just ignore, and the US will veto any of the consequences of loosing

[-] MarxMadness@lemmygrad.ml 28 points 9 months ago

doesn’t make rulings that are incompatible with the will of its master

It ruled against the U.S. in U.S. v. Nicaragua. It's more accurate to say that it's reluctant to rock the boat of western hegemony too hard, on the theory that countries openly defying its rulings will render it (more) ineffectual. There are obviously huge problems with this approach, but it's not just a rubber stamp machine.

[-] frauddogg@lemmygrad.ml 33 points 9 months ago

Oh, I'm gonna be infuckingsufferable.

[-] taiphlosion@lemmygrad.ml 28 points 9 months ago

Meanwhile all us MLs will have to watch our smug levels. Being THIS right all that time can potentially cause deadly levels of "smug" to accumulate in the body.

Suffering from success 💀

[-] SpaceDogs@lemmygrad.ml 17 points 9 months ago

Are they actually going to investigate that?

[-] kristina@hexbear.net 11 points 9 months ago

Do not assume the position smuglord

[-] PostingInternational@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 9 months ago

They are very likely not going to do that. Proving a genocide is an extremely tricky business. The Srebrenica genocide committed by the Bosnian Serbs was very hard to prove IIRC.

This is why the Uyghur "genocide" nonsense was so infuriating to me. Only the Zionists are unhinged enough to openly and proudly admit, they are, in fact, doing a genocide, so the court almost has no choice but to proceed with that case in particular.

[-] AlbigensianGhoul@lemmygrad.ml 59 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

How long until liberals start saying that the ICJ is controlled by Putin's ally, South Africa?

[-] ClimateChangeAnxiety@hexbear.net 39 points 9 months ago

Have they not already started saying the ICJ is Hamas?

[-] Aquilae@hexbear.net 33 points 9 months ago
[-] Ildsaye@hexbear.net 15 points 9 months ago

And behind them all is Saddam Hussein, who lives on despite the loss of his best body double. Few know there was a second trap door:
saddam-hussein
saddam-hussein

[-] SexMachineStalin@hexbear.net 6 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

They've already started claiming the ICJ lawsuit was contracted to Iran's "nine new provinces" back on Friday, lmao

[-] Omega_Haxors@lemmy.ml 24 points 9 months ago

It's been my experience that when someone makes spurious accusations, it's because they're doing it themselves.

[-] PostingInternational@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 9 months ago

Is that really an argument here? I see here Ukraine accusing Russia of genocide, not what you wrote in the headline.

[-] yogthos@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 9 months ago

I've detailed the points in the body of the post and you can read through the doc linked.

[-] PostingInternational@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 9 months ago

ICJ judges rejected Kiev's argument that Russia used false claims of a genocide in Donbas to justify its invasion

I did and I still don't get it where "ICJ judges rejected Kiev's argument that Russia used false claims of a genocide in Donbas to justify its invasion". Could you please elaborate? I genuinely want to rub this into someones face...

[-] yogthos@lemmygrad.ml 0 points 9 months ago

this part on the third page of the document, the court rejected Ukrainian position on that

this post was submitted on 03 Feb 2024
114 points (94.5% liked)

World News

2315 readers
292 users here now

founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS