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reading the books rule (lemmy.blahaj.zone)

submitted 8 months ago by wrenchmonkey@lemmy.blahaj.zone to c/196@lemmy.blahaj.zone

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for the record, like almost all big classic sci-fi, these books (dune) are remarkably bigoted and reductive. i still like space stories and political intrigue tho.

alt text: Trade Offer from Sand Worm Leto Atreides. You receive: 4000 years of planet bound subjugation. Spice, eventually. Famine. Sex ninjas from outer space. Golden Path... I recieve: Like 70 something Duncan Idahos. Gentle Hwi.

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[-] DrBob@lemmy.ca 30 points 8 months ago

Leto II was trying to free humanity from the tyranny of prescience. It took a 4000 year selective breeding program to produce Siona who was invisible to the future. It was the undoing of the Golden Path of Paul Muad'dib.

[-] DrugsMcChrist@lemmy.ml 28 points 8 months ago

This book was where the series completely left the rails for me. So fucking bizarre.

[-] marine_mustang@sh.itjust.works 30 points 8 months ago

Yeah, later books seem like Frank Herbert was way too obsessed with sex. The idea of Honored Maitres as using sex to control humans seemed pretty misogynistic, even at the time (yes, eventually there was a guy, too). Still, I think the whole “put humanity in a pressure cooker so they explode outwards when the lid is gone” concept was pretty thought-provoking. Also the Siona project; if prescience is a real thing in that universe, it can be studied and understood, then weaponized. How do you defend against an enemy that knows where and when you’ll be?

[-] A_Union_of_Kobolds@lemmy.world 20 points 8 months ago

I'm reading Chapterhouse right now and my God Frank has some real sexual issues doesn't he? I thought the Idaho gholas in God-Emperor were weird enough.

Still, as a critique on power structures, Dune as a whole is phenomenal

[-] DrBob@lemmy.ca 10 points 8 months ago

May I introduce you to John Norman and the wholesome little planet of Gor?

[-] mosiacmango@lemm.ee 10 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Jesus, i bought one of those from a little book store years ago because "cool cover!"

I remember that I was making small talk with the clerk/owner and said something like "this book looks rad!" And he gave me one of those slightly long "suuurree" replies.

I was maybe 30 pages in later and just put it down. "Really fucked up misogyny as a civilization" aint exactly a great genre.

[-] DrBob@lemmy.ca 7 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Or is it the best genre?

Don't look for a film adaptation any time soon.

eta: I went to look Gor up in wikipedia and Holy Shit! He's still publishing them as ebooks! #38 is coming out this year.

[-] frezik@midwest.social 5 points 8 months ago

Maybe we should drag Lynch back for creating the later movies in the series.

[-] spankinspinach@sh.itjust.works 2 points 8 months ago

Just started chapterhouse yesterday, it's a wild series for sure

[-] frezik@midwest.social 18 points 8 months ago

It gets overlooked today, but Barron Harkonnen is a gay stereotype. Overlooked because gay men being hyperviolent is a stereotype that's long died out, but it was a thing.

Dune starts in a weird place and it gets weirder as it goes.

[-] L3mmyW1nks@lemmy.world 1 points 8 months ago

IIRC, Frank Herbert very explicitly described how Leto II was applying homosexuality to his Fish Speakers in order to keep control over the violent traits common for any army. Luckily, it was just a few pages of it.
Then in the last book he started writing about Space Jews and I got a little frightened where that might end up...

[-] SzethFriendOfNimi@lemmy.world 28 points 8 months ago

Absolutely but it still kinda fits with the story.

Mankind, all the eggs in one basket.

Some evil is coming… and mankind just tends to want to congregate

So… what they need is a truly horrible despot whose influence and power is so absolute that once they’re free of him they’ll disperse and never look back.

So.. yeah… it makes a kind of odd sense… still bonkers though

[-] marine_mustang@sh.itjust.works 16 points 8 months ago

Yes, “teach them a lesson they’ll feel in their bones.” Although I thought the focus of being a despot, along with the Scattering, was to teach a humanity a lesson about avoiding the “Pharaonic Disease”; to reject authoritarians.

[-] Stamau123@lemmy.world 8 points 8 months ago

That was one of the points, yes. The lives of almost all humans in the galaxy were reduced to the same conditions, and put under ever increasing authoritarianism, that they would all break at once and forever have a shared hatred for despots.

[-] SzethFriendOfNimi@lemmy.world 3 points 8 months ago

You’re right. I can’t remember if was also to drive them away or if I just misremembered that. It’s been a bit since I last read them

[-] uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 8 months ago

Curiously this was an objective of the French Reign of Terror, to create consequences for an oppressive ruling class so dire it would make tyranny unthinkable. It didn't work in the short term (as demonstrated by the recurring piles of heads when the aristocracy forgot about the last batch.)

Of course, French history doesn't have oracles, but the Hellenists did, and still nobody listened to Cassandra.

[-] unfnknblvbl@beehaw.org 3 points 8 months ago

I'm gonna try reading it while on shrooms to see if it makes more sense

[-] frezik@midwest.social 6 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Frank would probably approve of this. Although I'm not sure how much you can really read while on shrooms.

[-] sukhmel@programming.dev 4 points 8 months ago

I'd wager: a lot but not what is written

[-] sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml 17 points 8 months ago

Foundation by isaac asimov is pretty solid for its time and mostly holds up today

[-] Zymii@lemmy.blahaj.zone 20 points 8 months ago

I liked it but there's two main issues IMO

Leans really heavily into the "If you're smart you should get to do whatever you want"
A complete lack of women characters which is particularly telling combined with point 1

[-] frezik@midwest.social 9 points 8 months ago

It's almost the definitive novel of classic Science Fiction, and I mean that in a lot of good and bad ways.

[-] sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml 5 points 8 months ago

Interesting, i havent read it yet but i'd read about the plot generally, what people thought about it, and what kind of person the author was. I could definitely see how these would manifest in his writing based on what i've read. Im still gonna read it bc the premise is fascinating but im glad im going into it with a more critical mind. Thanks for sharing your thoughts :)

[-] DAMunzy@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 8 months ago

Even his male characters were paper thin. IA was more into how the sci-fi ideas affected everyone than individual characters.

[-] june@lemmy.world 1 points 8 months ago

I have only watched the Apple TV show and the main character is a woman. I’d have never known lol.

[-] frezik@midwest.social 6 points 8 months ago

I haven't watched it, but I have read the main series and the prequel novel Asimov wrote late in life. I believe that one takes place around the first season of the show (Seldon making his early psychohistory investigations and finding the Empire is doomed). He does start including women there. Second half of the second book also has a prominent female character.

Keep in mind that those early works were done as short stories for Astounding Science Fiction under the guise of John Campbell. He's responsible for guiding the golden age of SF. Much of it was good in terms of stories and ideas, but he didn't give two shits about female characters. In fact, he never pressed anyone to have characters of any gender to be thicker than cardboard. Finding an interesting character in that era is rare.

[-] sukhmel@programming.dev 2 points 8 months ago

Finding an interesting character in that era is rare.

Tangentially related, but reading some of the more progressive books that contemporary were seen as promoting freedoms sometimes leaves the opposite impression because of how big the difference is between old times and now. But I saw that with the books from the beginning of XX^th century, Asimov is a bit less different if I remember correctly