Markup languages are just declarative programming at its best
Mostly it's a Word doc with extra steps.
For the common folk working with a markup language is programming.
For all intents and purposes, a markup document is a script that outputs a document. There's no point in saying the HTML isn't a programming language. Not all languages have to be general purpose.
The bar for me is whether the language describes an executable program that has state and control flow.
You could perhaps be generous and describe the DOM as a (write-only) state and the parser as a control flow. I don't, personally.
HTML is just a data container format to me. Belongs with the likes of XML, JSON, JPG, PNG, GIF, MP3, MOV, etc.
The umbrella term I'd use for all of these is "coding". That's the skill of understanding structured languages and format specifications, and understanding how you can and can't piece things together to make something coherent. This is a critical requisite skill to programming. But programming is more.
Programming is the art of juggling of state and control flow in clever ways to trick funny rocks into computing something you don't know. It doesn't need to be general purpose, but I would argue it indeed needs to have a purpose. It has to be something more than just a pile of declarations you know from the outset. Otherwise it's just structured data.
The umbrella term I'd use for all of these is "coding".
Saying "it's not programming it's coding" is like engineer "it's not dirt it's soil" levels of pedantry that are silly to expect people outside your profession to know.
Hey, maybe you are engineers after all lol
Sure. Which is why I would only make this distinction in a place where I can reasonably expect people to know better. Like, perhaps, a niche community on an experimental social media platform dedicated to programming.
Not really. If so, you might as well consider the stuff you can use to format a comment here on lemmy, as "programming". That's conceptually more similar to HTML as what programming actually is.
quote
Etc.
Yes, markdown is as much programming as HTML.
Yeah.. there are macros to handle formatting. Next you'll say Scratch isn't programming either.
To my knowledge, Scratch can save information away and retrieve it later. That's enough to be programming. There are Theory of Computation reasons for this; it's not an arbitrary distinction.
That's such a weird point to make. Is it because to you, it seems like the line drawn is arbitrary? I cannot imagine any other reason. Certain words just mean certain things.
Markup languages are exactly as much "programming" as you marking a word and hitting "bold". Which is to say, nothing at all. People are wrong all the time, and I have a very limited amount of fucks to give when it happens.
As for Scratch, it is a programming language. So, why would you think it's a logical next step for me to say otherwise? Next, you'll say something remarkably dumb in response. Resist the temptation, and do something more productive.
If he had said "LaTeX" or "roff", that might have been a good example of something that blurs the line between the two. They aren't specifically intended to be programming languages, but with a powerful enough macro system, a markup or typesetting language can be used in the same way as something like Brainfuck.
Absolutely. Those you suggest there are good examples.
Good enough that, instead of "is/isn't" programming language, it would be more a "ah, so, how do you define that then?". Now that I've had some sleep, one could argue that I could have been nicer and suggested that approach for HTML as well. After all, it's just words that mean stuff, and transfer a concept between people, that translate to the same (ish) idea. The moment the latter isn't the case, it's no longer very useful for the former.
Most disagreements, I find, are just cases of different understandings. Discussions worth having is when both are correct but different, and both want to figure out why they differ. So, on second thought, I think I was appropriately rude ^_^
Both LaTeX and roff are Turing complete, but they are also DSLs with a somewhat narrow "domain". Sounds exactly right that these blur the lines between what is/isn't. You could even argue that claiming one or the other is just one way to express how you understand that difference.
HTML5 + CSS3 is Turing complete, but just basic html is not.
how does something get tested for turing completeness
You port Doom to it.
Or linux.
Just about the only good reason for Brainfuck.
@frezik I mean that's literally it's purpose. being a minimal turing complete language.
I could be wrong, but I don't think the creators envisioned it being a basis for easily proving the Turing Completeness of other languages, but it did. They were more thinking "how can I have the most fucked up language in the smallest package and still be Turning Complete?"
By building a simulated Turing machine, usually... or at least by demonstrating that all the components to do so are available.
52 down: What you say if you're angry.
to be fair, the way it's worded I can parse as "a language for web programming", instead of "a programming language for the web"
It’s a markup language. There’s no debugging.
I don’t have to iterate through versions of the markup to find what works.
It doesn’t have specific documentation that is mostly the same but differs slightly on different runtimes
And it doesn’t have IO, dynamic extensibility or modularity….
Wait a second. Hmm… nah, it’s still just a markup language. Just one derived over time that feels like it was the brainchild of Satan and Cthulu
It’s a markup language. There’s no debugging
You're not trying hard enough
I don’t have to iterate through versions of the markup to find what works.
<section> or <article> first? A section can contain articles, but articles can have sections.
I'm not a programmer so I'm tending towards accepting HTML as a programming language, because it's a language you type in to make the computer do stuff. Is there maybe another example of something that does what HTML does but obviously isn't a programming language?
A PowerPoint, word document or even a text file or picture. There is only a description in the file of what it holds and it's up to the program that reads it, how it will visualize or interpret it.
A word document or PDF would be the closest.
Markup language vs programming language is similar to the difference between a font and a typeface. Sure, they're different but to the layperson, they might as well be the same thing.
The correct answer is <?ph
Programmer chuds get bent out of shape that HTML is the single most influential programming language ever made. Think about it, Devs post code snippets to StackOverflow, rendered in HTML. An HTML-interpreter (aka a 'Software Engineer') copy pastes the snippet, transpiles it into a Python file, Java file etc. and later in the process you get a binary.
Basic Brogrammers rage against programming behemoth HTML out of bitterness that all they are is HTML's compiler.
I think that's just some scrabble players angry at all the non-words
So the creator of this quiz wants to be someone having their life ended forcefully, 8 letters ...
Post funny things about programming here! (Or just rant about your favourite programming language.)
