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[-] PrinceWith999Enemies@lemmy.world 140 points 8 months ago

“Every customer should be greeted when they walk into the store.”

The singular “they” is traditional in English - it is very much proper English and has been around (iirc) since the 17th century. It’s only a big deal now because conservatives want to make gender a factor in elections.

[-] jbrains@sh.itjust.works 34 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)
[-] PrinceWith999Enemies@lemmy.world 6 points 8 months ago

Thanks!

I have always loved the OED. As a kid I used to sit in the library and just read it. It was always a dream of mine to buy my own copy and just have it the way people used to have encyclopedias.

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[-] Impound4017@sh.itjust.works 26 points 8 months ago

Well said! My go-to example is ‘If someone calls and I’m not here, tell them they can leave a message’ because it covers both they and them in a singular usage.

Sidenote: I also hate the way that some people act like languages are static things, despite the known history of languages to shift and change over time. English is arguably a German creole; we don’t get to act all sanctimonious now.

[-] PoliticalAgitator@lemmy.world 14 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

If we actually followed the "your gender identity is mildly inconvenient to me so should be banned" crowd and made everything unambiguously gendered, language would become far more awkward.

"If someone calls and I'm not there, tell him or her that he or she can leave a message".

We could start doing this right now -- every time ~~they~~ he or she uses the word "they", insist ~~they~~ he or she repeats ~~themselves~~ himself or herself in a way that leaves no gender ambiguity..

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[-] coolmultitool@lemmy.world 11 points 8 months ago

That's a good explanation. English isn't my native language, and I always found the they/them weird sounding. With that sentence of the customer you made it click for me. Thanks!

[-] gregorum@lemm.ee 5 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

i had an English teacher in high school that insisted sentences like this were grammatically incorrect (subject/verb disagreement, number), and should be, "Every customer should be greeted when he or she walks into the store," or "All customers should be greeted when they walk into the store."

I found them annoying.

[-] Carrolade@lemmy.world 69 points 8 months ago

"They" is the traditional English-language pronoun when an unknown person could be of either gender. "Mommy, my teacher said a funny thing at school today!" "Oh? What did they say?"

Teacher is singular, but assigning a gender would feel awkward if one doesn't know, so "they" is used instead.

[-] Tywele@lemmy.dbzer0.com 62 points 8 months ago

Why not just pick new words to use?

Because the current word for it works just fine?

[-] aphlamingphoenix@lemm.ee 25 points 8 months ago

And also because when people try to use neopronouns they take as much flak for that if not more. Imagine this same argument: "I'm not used to these newfangled pronouns. Why can't they just use normal ones?"

[-] SigmarStern@discuss.tchncs.de 10 points 8 months ago

As someone speaking German, a brutally gendered language, let me tell you, they/them is awesome and I'd love to have something similar in German. There is so much fighting and discussions about "gendern" and it consumes so much energy that could be better spent elsewhere. And conservatives are having a field trip with this.

Looking for a new word is equally as hard if not way harder than using what already works fine.

[-] Tywele@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 8 months ago

Yes I would love for the German language to have an equivalent for they/them. It's also so awkward talking about someone who is non binary and neither uses he/him nor she/her and you always have to refer to them by their name.

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[-] then_three_more@lemmy.world 56 points 8 months ago

It's not though. Singular they goes back to middle English (14th century) it was just grammar Nazis in the 18th century that tried to stamp it out.

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[-] ted@sh.itjust.works 43 points 8 months ago

one always thinks of a plurality of people

Speak for yourself! I don't immediately think plural when "they" is used.

[-] ABCDE@lemmy.world 10 points 8 months ago

Using "one" yet it refers to multiple people, my days.

[-] joyjoy@lemm.ee 7 points 8 months ago

IMO only one person is allowed to use the one pronoun: Keanu Reeves

[-] aarRJaay@lemmy.world 33 points 8 months ago

Person 1: Is your friend Bob coming over? Person 2: No, they can't make it, they're busy

One Bob, and we all know it's one Bob, no confusion. Look for context. It's not that hard.

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[-] jbrains@sh.itjust.works 28 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

One does not (always) do this. The singular "they" is many hundreds of years old.

If it confuses you, then I understand your confusion. Please read about the history of the singular "they" in order to resolve your confusion.

https://www.oed.com/discover/a-brief-history-of-singular-they

Why not choose new words? Languages evolve in a complex way. One reason is that "they" is an easy choice. Another reason is that many speakers react harshly to unfamiliar pronouns, therefore it promotes acceptance to use familiar pronouns in new ways. I wrote with the Spivak pronouns for years, but that led to more distraction than understanding, so when "they" emerged as a standard, I adopted it.

[-] r00ty@kbin.life 27 points 8 months ago

Really? I used they when I wasn't sure of gender (online games for example) before the pronoun use became common. I cannot remember anyone ever being confused.

[-] neptune@dmv.social 25 points 8 months ago

Conservatives would probably get mad about that too so "they" works just fine

[-] hperrin@lemmy.world 23 points 8 months ago

If you don’t know someone’s gender, what do you call them? Like, what if they present in a really ambiguous way? Or what if you’ve never even met them? Like say you’re about to sit down at a restaurant, and you notice a jacket on the seat, would you tell the hostess, “excuse me, I think the last person to sit here left their jacket.” Or would you just be unable to refer to them because you don’t know their gender?

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[-] Slatlun@lemmy.ml 23 points 8 months ago

Me talking at dinner: "Will you pass me the peas?" Cut to 5 people confused about whether I mean just one of them or if I want the whole table to all hand me the peas.

I get why they/them can be confusing because of the plural thing, but we are used to a quirky language. With a little practice, the tone and context clear up nearly all confusion. The rest is as easy or hard as what we have to do with an ambiguous "you."

PS Sorry to the "yous/yous guys" people. I am not trying to turn a blind eye to you obviously superior usage. It just really ruins my point.

[-] glimse@lemmy.world 19 points 8 months ago

You say "with a little practice," but there's no practice needed when it's already part of our language. I guarantee every English speaker complaining about it uses "they" as a singular pronoun quite often.

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[-] knightly@pawb.social 19 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Sadly, many educational institutions still teach a prescriptive form of English that fails to acknowledge this, but singular "They" is decades older than using "You" instead of "Thou" as a singular second-person pronoun. It was already in common use way back in Shakespeare's time. If thou thinkst this confusing, change thyself before demanding others change for thine own comfort.

Also, some people are plural, so the ambiguity of "they" is inclusive to them.

Also-also, the only other pronouns in common use that aren't explicitly gendered are "it/its", which some people find dehumanizing. Nonbinary and agender folks often (but not exclusively) prefer "they/them" over "it/its" or neopronouns.

Also-also-also, "picking new words to use" is extremely non-trivial for pronouns because it requires the entire English-speaking population to relearn fundamental communication habits. It's much easier to simply accept the fact that singular they is extremely common.

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[-] bjoern_tantau@swg-empire.de 18 points 8 months ago

Thou shouldst campaign for the resurgence of a second person singular pronoun as well.

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[-] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 15 points 8 months ago

This is typical for the English language.

There used to be thou, which was a singular form of you. However, thou also implied you were talking to someone at or lower that you were. Eventually, it became seen as rude to call someone thou, so its usage dropped in favor of a uniform you.

A singular they fits this role, as the gender isn't defined enough to use he or she and the use of it would be seen as an insult.

[-] morphballganon@lemmy.world 14 points 8 months ago

confusing and difficult

It's really not, if you try. Have you tried? No. So give it an earnest shot before you lament your woes and push for others to bend over backward for you.

[-] ABCDE@lemmy.world 13 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

It is much quicker to understand they as a neutral instead of introducing new language and trying to disseminate that through textbooks. This way, there's no need for any (or many) edits, we can just maintain existing grammar with new understanding.

English already has another form which refers to singular and plural: 'you'. I assume that people who suddenly take umbrage are just kicking up a fuss for the sake of it, or simply didn't stop to think about what they've been using all this time.

[-] MissJinx@lemmy.world 13 points 8 months ago

why use many word when few word do trick?

[-] Lladra@lemmy.world 12 points 8 months ago

Good grief, this is not new. It's part of the English language. They/them has always been around to use when one couldn't, or didn't want to use a more specific pronoun. Cumbersome, maybe, but much language is. It is NOT a big deal.

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[-] Deestan@lemmy.world 11 points 8 months ago

Entering academia early 2000s, I saw people refer to authors of research papers as "they" as a default to sidestep gendering.

On one hand it's nice to not insert gender where it isn't needed, but on the more practical hand it wasn't always possible to tell by name either. European names can have different gender in different regions, or be all Sztrkökla, and names from Asia are even harder to guess.

[-] ABCDE@lemmy.world 8 points 8 months ago

names from Asia are even harder to guess

Good luck in Cambodia where Samnang and many other names can be used for both male and female names.

[-] my_hat_stinks@programming.dev 8 points 8 months ago

You get gender-neutral names in English-speaking countries too, eg Alex, Jordan, and Dylan. It's just not possible to reliably guess everyone's gender from their name alone.

[-] Deestan@lemmy.world 4 points 8 months ago

In Norway there's like 60 names that have a reasonably even usage between genders.

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[-] Anticorp@lemmy.world 7 points 8 months ago

I totally get your opinion, because I used to share it and even created a similar post on Reddit a few years ago. Just start using it and you'll be surprised how quickly it becomes natural. There's no good reason not to do something that is easy and can potentially prevent people from feeling uncomfortable.

[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 4 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

We don't need a new word. "Dude" already exists.

I'm a dude.

He's a dude.

She's a dude.

We're all dudes!

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this post was submitted on 14 Mar 2024
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