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For example on wikipedia for Switzerland it says the country has an area of 41,285 km². Does this take into account that a lot of that area is actually angled at a steep inclination, thus the actual surface area is in effect larger than what you would expect when looking onto a map in satellite view?

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[-] not_woody_shaw@lemmy.world 153 points 3 months ago

I can't remember if it was Matt Parker or Tom Scott who did a thing about this on youtube, and I think the answer was no, they just use whatever method is easiest to get these numbers, and they're not even using a consistent methodology from one country to the next.

[-] r@piefed.social 86 points 3 months ago

It was by Matt Parker. Here it is: https://youtu.be/PtKhbbcc1Rc

or watch it on piped.video if you prefer: https://piped.video/PtKhbbcc1Rc

[-] lars@lemmy.sdf.org 13 points 3 months ago

Holy fucking shit. I can’t believe this is a question people have asked and others have answered and that the answer is so unsatisfying for pedants.

[-] freebee@sh.itjust.works 11 points 3 months ago

thanks for the links!

[-] Skullgrid@lemmy.world 32 points 3 months ago

I can’t remember if it was Matt Parker

the south park guy?

created by Trey Parker and Matt Stone

oh.

[-] captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 11 points 3 months ago

Matt Parker, stand-up mathematician.

[-] angrystego@lemmy.world 4 points 3 months ago

Colleague of Trey Stone.

[-] indepndnt@lemmy.world 10 points 3 months ago

lol thanks for saving me the trouble of fact checking myself too

[-] geogle@lemmy.world 94 points 3 months ago

No. It's a flat approximation. The short answer is that once you take account for topography, your answer will always grow with surface resolution, and thus the actual surface area of rough topography is undefined.

[-] Scrollone@feddit.it 48 points 3 months ago

It's the same problem with defining coastlines. You can keep increasing the resolution and the coastline length will increase indefinitely.

[-] Thavron@lemmy.ca 14 points 3 months ago

Ahh those fiddly little fjords.

[-] geogle@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago

those fiddly atoms and quarks

[-] niktemadur@lemmy.world 7 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I would imagine that the area increases significantly, a type of example of what they say about fractal coastlines theoretically being able to have a perimeter of infinite length.

EDIT: it just occurred to me that theoretically, if measuring area with a different scale, a country like Bhutan could claim to have as much surface area as... say Australia.

Or both are infinite, but since one fits inside the other, I'm getting into that weird mathematical study of infinities within infinities.

[-] Dultas@lemmy.world 4 points 3 months ago

The Gabriel's horn / painter's paradox is a good one too.

[-] SLVRDRGN@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago

Never heard of it before, that's another mind melter. How does the volume of the horn end up to neatly be pi ?? YouTube link I found.

[-] angrystego@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago

And what about navigation, does it count the slopes in? Is the route actually longer than it says if you travel up and down mountains?

[-] Silentiea@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

It's probably aware of them, but generally no. Most slopes for driving on are smooth enough to be pretty negligible unless you're going hundreds of miles or more, in which case fives of miles won't make much difference either.

But if you're traveling by bike those small slopes may make some parts of the ride significantly more difficult or easier, and for cars may impact fuel efficiency in a way much more significant than just counting the extra distance traveled. So many navigation systems will still account for slope, even if they don't necessarily acknowledge the length of your path as precisely as you may have hoped

[-] Natanael@slrpnk.net 2 points 3 months ago

Not for distance, however when you start doing fuel calculations it gets counted in

[-] snooggums@midwest.social 66 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Inclination must be ignored for area to work on a map, plus the inclination ends up being lost in the noise on a large scale. It is very similar to the coastline issue where the more detail you include the longer the coastline gets until every coastline is basically infinite.

Let's take an area split into a grid. One are has a hilly round slope, one is flat, and the rest are a variety of combinations. If you tried to take slope into account the one with the round hill would require the straight lines of the grid to warp towards it like one of those space time curvature pictures. The one that is flat is the only one that could be square, and even then it only works if you count it as flat since even flat ground has a small texture.

So no, they don't take elevation into account for maps because it would be far too difficult to measure.

The surface area can only be calculated with a defined level of accuracy due to how textured surfaces work.

[-] BlackLaZoR@kbin.run 14 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

This is the same problem as with coastline length - the higher resolution you'll use, the bigger the number you'll get. AFAIK this is solved by just standarization of calculation methods - there's just certain rounding to be applied in all cases so you get a comparable results

[-] njm1314@lemmy.world 34 points 3 months ago

It's not, but I love the idea that it could be. You just know some of those megalomaniac dictators would be piling up fake Hills to make their country bigger. Turkmenistan would have giant Towers of dirt everywhere.

[-] Deestan@lemmy.world 24 points 3 months ago

Due to the fractal nature of geometery, all they would have to do is use more fine-grained measurements. :)

[-] sp3tr4l@lemmy.zip 9 points 3 months ago

Lets now measure all coastlines with the minimum increment possible, the planck length.

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[-] ICastFist@programming.dev 14 points 3 months ago

Do you think the holes left by digging the dirt would also count as increased area? Because it feels like it'd be a 2 for one deal

[-] OhmsLawn@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago
[-] SLVRDRGN@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago

Oh man, holey cheese has one heck of a surface area doesn't it.

[-] OhmsLawn@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago

Depends on the thickness of the slice.

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[-] nyankas@lemmy.ml 28 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

There‘s a great video on that topic by Matt Parker (Standupmaths) which I‘d wholeheartedly recommend.

TLDW: No, terrain elevation isn‘t generally taken into account when calculating a country‘s surface area, though the actual method differs slightly from country to country. Switzerland would be around 7% bigger, if its mountains were to be taken into account.

[-] nednobbins@lemm.ee 14 points 3 months ago

No.

It's actually worse than that. Very few borders are straight lines. We have to approximate the border when calculating land area.

[-] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 11 points 3 months ago

In addition to the other reasons people have given for why they don't: we're usually less interested in the surface area of a plot of land than we are in the usable area.

People generally can't live or farm on a significant slant and will instead level the ground or build supporting structures to make things level.
Things like rainfall are also generally better calculated by flat area.

[-] NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago

People generally can't live or farm on a significant slant and will instead level the ground or build supporting structures to make things level.

But here we have Switzerland as the example :) where nearly every small or large piece of farmland is far from level.

[-] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 15 points 3 months ago

"significant" being the keyword. :)

There's clearly a slant, but you can see where it was a bit too much and so they added retaining walls to level things out.

In a place like this, you can tell what places are suitable for farming, which could be farmed with a little leveling, which are suitable for grazing, and which are just too steep for food.

They're definitely not going to entirely level every place, but you also can't grow food on the side of a mountain. :)

[-] dmention7@lemm.ee 7 points 3 months ago

The photo of the terraced farming actually brings up an interesting point--in order to render those slopes usable for farming, terracing approximates the "flat" projection of the terrain anyways, so you end up with the same result. Buildings and any other usable structures follow the same rule: you can only build vertically, so the effective surface area is the same as the flat projection.

[-] freebee@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 months ago

even the little bits of grass around the peaks in foreground could actually be used. I'm amazed how risky cows behaviour is regarding to the abyss, and goats somehow are just completely not afraid of heights at all and hop around on 400 meter cliffs like a walk in the park. So you can grow food (meat+milk) on mountain sides during summer

[-] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 months ago

Yup, it's why grazers are so common in mountainous areas. It's way easier to manage goats and cows in a mountain, with some fruit, hay and wheat fields to supplement down in the valleys than it is to reshape the steep areas to make them suitable for crops.
It's why Switzerland has it's own type of cheese, and the flattest parts of the US are predominantly known for "lots of corn".

To be clear though, the unusable areas I referred to were more the mountains in the background, or the nearly shear cliffs in the middle ground that the shepherd is unlikely to let the (perfectly willing) goats graze on, on account of needing to be able to get the goats later. :)

[-] NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago

There's clearly a slant, but you can see where it was a bit too much and so they added retaining walls to level things out.

I have seen farmers work on steeper slopes (not saying it would be easy...).

I would rather guess the purpose of these retaining walls is to slow down the soil erosion.

[-] neidu2@feddit.nl 7 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Doubt it. Because then it becomes a question of resolution, where too high results in countries with infinite area, since ever slope, ditch, and grain of sand has to be accounted for.

[-] tobogganablaze@lemmus.org 8 points 3 months ago
[-] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago

Luckily while the coastline number is affected, the actual area is still bounded. It's like that infinite horn with paint paradox.

[-] NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago

BTW are the walls of New York's scyscrapers included in the calculation?

/s

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[-] Neon@lemmy.world 4 points 3 months ago

Switzerland mentioned 🇨🇭🇨🇭💪💪

[-] MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml 4 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

No, what for? Most of it is unusable anyway. And the less steep inclinations are in the margin of errors.

[-] 0xb@lemm.ee 4 points 3 months ago

I don't know the precise answer, but I do know this:

  1. Often the kind of measures that are about something vast and complex (like population for example) are really good approximations, not completely exact numbers. So maybe doesn't matter because the number itself is not trying to be 100% accurate.
  2. As far as I know those measures are made from the top down view, like with airplanes or satellites, so no it would not include inclines. To include inclines in a precise way it would have to be measured each one on the spot, which is not the way that is done. There are almost no field surveyors these days, again, as far as I know. And to include inclines in an approximate way takes us to point 1 again so it wouldn't matter much if there were a small difference.
  3. Why would we do that? Almost everything we use land for requires it to be horizontally flat, so we flatten it. For example, an irregular coastline doesn't matter because we can use the crevices and irregularities to fit in more boats or ports or beaches, since the sea is horizontally flat and that is what really matter to us. But if there's a hill with a greater area because of the steepness of it we cannot fit more houses or warehouses of streets. We have to flatten it first so we gain noting from it being inclined.

So form my point of view it would be almost as if we tried to include the sides of a ravine or gorge in the measure just because technically it is area space.

Sorry if I cannot give you an exact answer, but I wanted to comment because you raised an interesting point that made me think.

Cheers.

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this post was submitted on 30 Jul 2024
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