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Israel’s military starts drafting ultra-Orthodox Jews – but the battle over serving ‘the army of God’ vs. the army of the state isn’t over, and points to key questions for the country’s future. (theconversation.com)

submitted 3 months ago by ModerateImprovement@sh.itjust.works to c/world@lemmy.world

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[-] greenshirtdenimjeans@sh.itjust.works 45 points 3 months ago

Move onto land that isn’t yours

Cause the people to fight back

Hide as others battle in a war for you

Get mad when policy changes and you have to fight

[+] JackGreenEarth@lemm.ee -6 points 3 months ago

Tbf most of them have lived there for many generations, it's not as if they consciously chose to move there just to spite the previous residents. But I do agree they shouldn't be treated specially for their religious beliefs, and that no one should be forcefully crafted even.

[-] greenshirtdenimjeans@sh.itjust.works 10 points 3 months ago

No.

The vast majority of the settlements have been built either entirely or partially on private Palestinian land.

More than 700,000 settlers – 10 percent of Israel’s nearly 7 million population – now live in 150 settlements and 128 outposts dotting the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem.

A settlement is authorised by the Israeli government while an outpost is built without government authorisation. Outposts can range from a small shanty of a few people to a community of up to 400 people.

Some of the settlers move to the occupied territories for religious reasons while others are drawn by a relatively lower cost of living and financial incentives offered by the government. Ultraorthodox Jews form one-third of all settlers.

[-] JackGreenEarth@lemm.ee -5 points 3 months ago

Ok, so a third of settlers are Ultra orthodox. That means the majority, two thirds, aren't, and the statistics for what percentage of ultra orthodox Jews are settlers are still not present in this conversation. Just to make it clear, there are many legitimate reasons to hate Ultra orthodox Judaism. Just trying to make sure it's for the right reasons and not a scarecrow.

[-] greenshirtdenimjeans@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 months ago

Just to be clear, I never said I hated anyone.

Fucked up that you want to make sure I hate them for the right reasons? Idiot

[-] JackGreenEarth@lemm.ee -1 points 3 months ago

I didn't say I hated anyone either. I hate the ideology of Ultra orthodox Judaism, not any individual person. Mostly for the harm it causes to people and animals, but also because it isn't true.

[-] Maggoty@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago

They are absolutely pushing Palestinians out to settle their land. The government actually has programs incentivizing living in a settlement, making it cheaper and better served than living in the normal borders of Israel. Unless you're Palestinian of course. Then your home gets surrounded by barbed wire and you have to go through armed checkpoints to go anywhere, work, groceries, school, literally anywhere.

[-] JackGreenEarth@lemm.ee 1 points 3 months ago

Some are moving onto Palestinian land. But as I said, most of them stay in ultra orthodox communities they've lived in for generations, where they do admittedly have their own issues. But ones that don't include settling on Palestinian land.

[-] Maggoty@lemmy.world 0 points 3 months ago

It's not just the ultra Orthodox. This isn't a religious issue. It's a racism issue. And it's several hundred thousand settlers, not some tiny faction.

[-] elucubra@sopuli.xyz 1 points 3 months ago

"most"? it seems that 3.5 million people immigrated into palestine since 1948, providing those generations you mention

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/total-immigration-to-israel-by-year

[+] LavenderDay3544@lemmy.world -14 points 3 months ago

[deleted]

[-] Maggoty@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago

The reports from the British colonial forces are clear. The Isrealis pushed the British out and attacked the Palestinians.

And you don't get to occupy someone for 70 years, refuse them rights, refuse to let them have a state, or properly annex them, and then be surprised they want to kill you. This is like Hitler calling the Warsaw Ghetto Jews the violent ones.

[+] LavenderDay3544@lemmy.world -7 points 3 months ago

[deleted]

[-] Maggoty@lemmy.world 6 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Oh wow that is a lot, it's going to take some time to read through that. Especially since we're starting off by jumping straight into the racist colonial ideology deep end. The British just had to take control of the area because the locals weren't capable of governance. A tale told in literally every colony state ever and as false in all of them.

Saying the British left of their free will is hilarious. They left of their own free will in the American Colonies too. It's okay we can let them keep some dignity right? It's not like they left after a major terror campaign or anything.

And the Locals wanted the settlers from the colonialist regime gone too? Oh wow that's like super evil.

And now you're going to tell us they're different conflicts. The Israelis have never stopped committing acts of war. It's all the same conflict.

The Israeli "militias" were absolutely comprised of settlers. The main pro settler organization was buying the supplies. They were unapologetically Zionist from their founding in 1939.

The Palestinians in the occupied area haven't started a dang thing. They've been reacting since the British took it upon themselves to play colony with them.

Arab Israelis live a separate but equal life. They have the same rights in the exact same way Black Americans did. Just with less official rules to point at.

And yeah you kind of need Israel's permission when they actively prevent elections, and assassinate government officials at will. It's okay though, Gaza didn't need a head doctor for their hospital system.

Hamas and Fatah are actually in the middle of historic talks right now. And they had a peaceful election until Israel intervened.

The PLO is not responsible for Israel keeping the West Bank and Gaza in limbo. There is no carve out for, "they look mean". You either annex them or go home and now days even annexation is going to require a majority vote. That ship sailed around the 1970's.

For all the "woe is me" and "all Palestinians are terrorists responsible for everything bad" propaganda here, just stop. This narrative is fucking tired. We have the Internet now. We have cameras. We have data, and memories. This isn't the 1980's when you'd get a single news paper article as the information source. You can't contain this and you can't lie your way out of it anymore.

[-] elucubra@sopuli.xyz 4 points 3 months ago

So I can claim any land that was promised to me by some imaginary friend?

[-] groupofcrows@lemmy.ca 1 points 3 months ago

And they are the aggressors when they defend themselves from people who haven't lived there for hundreds of years.

[-] RIPandTERROR@sh.itjust.works 1 points 3 months ago

See Canaan

[-] match@pawb.social 3 points 3 months ago

never any sovereign nation called Palestine prior to the end of the British Mandate of Palestine

free Philistine then idgaf

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 12 points 3 months ago

Netanyahu's going to need a much bigger military for whoever he goes to war with next. Because they'll have an actual trained military force to go up against.

[-] Deceptichum@quokk.au 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

He has the worlds largest military behind him backing him up from anything.

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago

For now. Harris seems much less inclined to help out Israel based on things she's said so far. I hope so anyway.

[-] MediaBiasFactChecker@lemmy.world -2 points 3 months ago

The Conversation Media Bias Fact Check Credibility: [High] (Click to view Full Report)

The Conversation is rated with High Creditability by Media Bias Fact Check.

Bias: Least Biased
Factual Reporting: Very High
Country: Australia
Full Report: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-conversation/

Check the bias and credibility of this article on Ground.News

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