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Modern AI data centers consume enormous amounts of power, and it looks like they will get even more power-hungry in the coming years as companies like Google, Microsoft, Meta, and OpenAI strive towards artificial general intelligence (AGI). Oracle has already outlined plans to use nuclear power plants for its 1-gigawatt datacenters. It looks like Microsoft plans to do the same as it just inked a deal to restart a nuclear power plant to feed its data centers, reports Bloomberg.

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[-] Etterra@lemmy.world 10 points 3 hours ago

I'm sure that everyone will recognize that this was a great idea in a couple of years when generative LLM AI goes the way of the NFT.

[-] Alpha71@lemmy.world 6 points 4 hours ago

I had to do a double take to make sure this wasn't an onion article.

[-] peopleproblems@lemmy.world 44 points 18 hours ago

Personally? I don't think this is a bad idea. The less they drain from the grid, the less they consume fossil fuel.

The reactor isn't active right now, and they are a PWR design, and like the 1979 incident showed, they do fail safely.

So long as Microsoft pays for the operation of the plant? Seems reasonable to me if they're going to consume an assload of energy with or without public support.

[-] echodot@feddit.uk 11 points 4 hours ago

I remember I had to do the 3 mile Island incident as part of my university degree. Apparently one of the biggest problems was that the control interface was hard to understand for the human operators.

So I guess if they just replaced the control system with a modern computer that would fix most of the problems. Obviously not a Windows system, otherwise we've just got the same issue all over again.

[-] jadedwench@lemmy.world 2 points 2 hours ago

It was the SCADA view right? A lot of SCADA software is basically running on top of windows, though you typically would never see the desktop. Ignition at least is cross platform, but that is because the server is Java and Jython. A big part of why things are running on windows is due to OPC, which was traditionally all DOM and .NET. It is basically a standard communications protocol and is what allows your HMI/SCADA to communicate with PLCs. Otherwise, you use proprietary drivers and native PLC specific protocols.

SCADA programming/design is kind of an art and is usually written by an either an overworked engineer or someone who had far too much time on their hands. You basically build screens using specialized software, hook up buttons and UI elements to PLC signals, and pass some signals from the UI to the PLC. They are all heading in the Edge/iot/cloud/web based/techno-babble direction these days...

Ignition, programming software is free!: https://inductiveautomation.com

Some other random ones I have seen or used in the past: https://www.siemens.com/global/en/products/automation/simatic-hmi/wincc-unified.html https://www.aveva.com/en/products/intouch-hmi/ https://www.rockwellautomation.com/en-us/products/software/factorytalk/operationsuite/view.html

[-] CLOTHESPlN@lemmy.world 2 points 2 hours ago

"is usually written by an over worked engineer"

I'm in this post and I don't like it.

But really these scada systems are rarely well defined by the time implementation happens. Often the architect has a great plan, but by the time it's passed to a manager, a non-software engineer, to the product engineer to the automation team to the contractor the end result is "X data is pushed in With Y form and we use either a,b,or c date time stamp any nobody knows"

[-] vrighter@discuss.tchncs.de 25 points 18 hours ago

we could use that extra energy to offset a bunch of existing carbon emissions now. This is still waste. If it's going to be started up again, and its energy used for something useless, it's waste.

[-] echodot@feddit.uk 6 points 4 hours ago

That argument presupposes that the reactor would otherwise be brought back into operation, which I don't think is necessarily the case.

[-] peopleproblems@lemmy.world 17 points 17 hours ago

Microsoft would do it with or without the power plant. Make no mistake about that.

The same argument could be said if they made a 1GW solar farm, or any other form of power generation. Unless you have a way to legislatively prevent Microsoft from producing their own energy or prevent acquisition of decommissioned plants, I don't see how you can prevent waste.

[-] KairuByte@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 16 hours ago

Is it going to be started up again?

If M$ doesn’t invest into this for their own purposes, is it still going to be started up? Or is your position that M$ should be investing in a nuclear power plant for the good of the world?

Because while I can agree with the idea, we all know that would never happen. So if it was never going to be started up again, we are at 0 gain or loss no matter what they do with it.

And that’s ignoring the fact that they are apparently intending on using that energy anyway.

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[-] Eximius@lemmy.world 111 points 23 hours ago

Lol. I just love it how so many people complain that Nuclear doesnt make financial sense, and then the most financially motivated companies just actually figure out that using a nuclear reactor completely privately is best.

Fuck sake, world.

[-] polle@feddit.org 1 points 26 minutes ago

Yeah for sure it is cheaper, if they only have to pay the operational costs. Not the ones of building and decomissioning the plant. Lol.

[-] TheEighthDoctor@lemmy.world 3 points 3 hours ago

The fact that they want to buy an old nuclear reactor instead of building a new one should be all you need to know to realise that it's not financially viable.

[-] And009@reddthat.com 1 points 34 minutes ago

I see this as a good thing because they'll invest more on making energy efficient. That's something bound to trickle down and help poorer regions unless they die off first.

[-] ReluctantMuskrat@lemmy.world 22 points 18 hours ago

Nuclear safety and penny-pinchers don't make good bedfellows.

[-] homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world 10 points 18 hours ago

Nuclear safety and ~~penny-pinchers~~ capitalism don't make good bedfellows.

ftfy. Possibly ironically, nuclear safety and communism (or totalitarianism) don’t work either. It’s odd, innit.

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[-] datendefekt@lemmy.ml 33 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago)

Microsoft jumped fully on the AI hype bandwagon with their partnership in OpenAI and their strategy of forcing GenAI down our throats. Instead of realizing that GenAI is not much more than a novel parlor trick that can't really solve problems, they are now fully committing.

Microsoft invested $1 billion in OpenAI, and reactivating 3 Mile Island is estimated at $1.6 billion. And any return on these investments are not guaranteed. Generally, GenAI is failing to live up to its promises and there is hardly any GenAI use case that actually makes money.

This actually has the potential of greatly damaging Microsoft, so I wouldn't say all their decisions are financially rational and sound.

[-] the_crotch@sh.itjust.works 1 points 8 hours ago

My org's Microsoft reps gave a demo of their upcoming copilot 365 stuff. It can summarize an email chain, use the transcript of a teams meeting to write a report, generate a PowerPoint of the key parts of that report, and write python code that generates charts and whatnot in excel. Assuming it works as advertised, this is going to be really big in offices. All of that would save a ton of time.

[-] datendefekt@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 hours ago

Keep in mind that that was a demo to sell Copilot.

The issue that I've got with GenAI is that it has no expert knowledge in your field, knows nothing of your organization, your processes, your products or your problems. It might miss something important and it's your responsibility to review the output. It also makes stuff up instead of admitting not knowing, gives you different answers for the same prompt, and forgets everything when you exhaust the context window.

So if I've got emails full of fluff it might work, but if you've got requirements from your client or some regulation you need to implement you'll have to review the output. And then what's the point?

[-] billiam0202@lemmy.world 14 points 20 hours ago

On the other hand, if they ever admit the whole genAI thing doesn't work, they could just sell the electricity produced by the plant.

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[-] alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml 23 points 22 hours ago

Honestly it seems crazy that companies that are so focused on short-term profits in 2024 would be able to make nuclear work.

[-] krashmo@lemmy.world 11 points 18 hours ago

Every once in a while they get faced with a line on a chart somewhere so unbelievably vertical that they have no choice but to look beyond next quarter. Power consumption going 10x in 2 years is one of those times.

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[-] MTK@lemmy.world 29 points 20 hours ago

Ironically, the power hungriness of AI might actually do good for the environment if it normalizes nuclear energy.

Quite the twist

I just hope this deal doesn’t involve using their AI to monitor the reactor …

[-] Womble@lemmy.world 10 points 18 hours ago

There actually has been good work on using AI to control fusion plasmas its at the point where it can keep them stable significantly better than any human or simple automated system.

[-] homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world 8 points 17 hours ago

Yes in a research lab. Here we’re talking about Microsoft.

Have you ever used something they made? Did it meet your standard of being “good work”? No. It’s a greedy, soulless cash grab disguised as software that infects the entire organization and disables common sense.

M$ actually running a nuclear plant is a guaranteed disaster. Blue Screen of Death.

[-] peopleproblems@lemmy.world 8 points 18 hours ago

You know, that actually makes sense. Fusion is so energetic and probabilistic in nature, plus it's effectively "charged fluid dynamics" and there are an impossible number of variables to handle. That's literally the kind of shit AI is great at.

Fission though? Not so much

[-] Womble@lemmy.world 10 points 18 hours ago

No, stick rod in / pull rod out doesn't really need deep learning to make work well :p

[-] peopleproblems@lemmy.world 13 points 18 hours ago

Apparently, I didn't learn that with my ex

[-] TacticsConsort@yiffit.net 34 points 23 hours ago

Holy sunk cost fallacy, batman. How fucking much does it cost to operate an ENTIRE GODDAMN NUCLEAR REACTOR just to fuel a tech project that nobody wants???

[-] Doomsider@lemmy.world 6 points 16 hours ago

A lot of the cost is building a giant centralized nuclear facility. Once they are built it is not nearly as expensive to run them.

I think this is generally a good thing. Companies should be thinking of ways to supply their power needs.

Having said that, people want a good AI. The LLMs they are working on are probably not that. I am very skeptical we are anywhere close to where the hype train has taken us

[-] Korkki@lemmy.world 25 points 23 hours ago

Investors want it, because they want to ride the wave towards profit. It doesn't matter if it's good, sustainable or not. That is what matters.

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[-] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 15 points 22 hours ago

that nobody wants

lol

[-] OhStopYellingAtMe@lemmy.world 21 points 23 hours ago

This sounds like the intro to a bad post-apocalypse sci-fi movie.

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[-] TheBat@lemmy.world 8 points 20 hours ago

Based on their Windows updates history, this seems like a bad idea. Nuclear boogaloo let's goooooo

[-] JoMiran@lemmy.ml 10 points 21 hours ago

I am all for nuclear power, but I'd rather it be from modern reactor designs and builds, and I'd rather it not be wasted on bullshit.

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this post was submitted on 21 Sep 2024
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