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The US no longer supports capping plastic production in UN treaty (grist.org)

submitted 6 days ago by solo@slrpnk.net to c/climate@slrpnk.net

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Environmental advocates understand the announcement as a reversal, calling it “absolutely devastating.”

The Biden administration has backtracked from supporting a cap on plastic production as part of the United Nations’ global plastics treaty.

This represents a reversal of what the same groups were told at a similar briefing held in August, when Biden administration representatives raised hopes that the U.S. would join countries like Norway, Peru, and the United Kingdom in supporting limits on plastic production.

Nearly 70 countries, along with scientists and environmental groups, support the latter. They say it’s futile to mop up plastic litter while more and more of it keeps getting made.

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[-] PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat 44 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

I noticed something weird about the comments here.

20 minutes after the post, treefrog posted his comment defining a "Fuck the Democrats ... I'm done voting for them" narrative. I've noticed that a lot of topics on Lemmy get tied back to not voting for the Democrats.

There then followed about an hour of, basically, silence, with that "Fuck the Democrats" comment as the top comment. Then I posted my response, disagreeing with treefrog.

After that, the next hour or so featured, not 0 comments like the previous hour, but 4 different comments. The only comments that got made, outside of my discussion with treefrog, were:

A top-level comment saying "Fuck the Biden administration" which took over the comment top spot
Other replies to treefrog's top level comment, pushing my response down

The total result is that the top two comments say "Fuck the Biden administration" and "Fuck the Democrats", and then there's general less focused conversation after that. The narrative is back, in these comments, that the right response to this is not to vote for the Democrats.

Maybe this sounds like conspiracy theory rock, but I've noticed this pattern before, where there's a "fuck the Democrats" narrative in the top comments, with the comments otherwise being quiet, and if something changes that narrative among the top comments, there's a little flurry of activity until the narrative is reestablished, and then things quiet down again.

Maybe I'm nuts. It definitely was notable to me, though. Especially given the weirdness of reacting to this particular story by instantly reaching for "Let's not vote for Democrats anymore!" as the solution to environmental problems. Like... out of all the strategies or reactions you could have, that's the first one that comes to mind?

Edit: Clarifications

Edit 2: The person who reported this for "incivility"... lol.

[-] WanderingVentra@lemm.ee 15 points 6 days ago

Eh the Democrats really fucked up this last election and haven't made a lot of good decisions since (undoing their 30 day warning to Israel, this, they haven't really been preparing for the Trump admin well like by fast tracking judges or anything, etc).

It's probably just a coincidence but personally I'm okay with the anger getting to a place where another party rises to take their place. This election was the last straw for a lot of people and I think it's finally causing some people to see how not great they are. Everyone's been ignoring it and discouraging dissent against them on Lemmy for a long time now because the election, but there's no reason to hold back. There's no more election now so I doubt it's bots or whatever, it's just people pissed, and rightfully.

As for the lack of other discussion, there's probably just not a lot else to say. It's a bad decision that's obviously bad for environment and the world. There isn't a lot to say about thay other than, "well that sucks."

[-] PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat 1 points 6 days ago

Turning against the corporate Democrats, because their environmental policies are bad, will not get them replaced by something better. Turning against the corporate Democrats will probably result in one-party rule by the Republicans for a generation, with horrors environmental and domestic the likes of which no one of this generation has witnessed.

I would also apply that exact same thing to the breed of Nancy Pelosi Democrats that wants to hang the progressive wing of the party out to dry. It seems like after a few days of panic after the election, everyone forgot what we're in for. We need allies at this stage. Or we will all hang separately, and like that.

Everyone’s been ignoring it and discouraging dissent against them on Lemmy

This narrative that "everyone" on Lemmy loves the Democrats is very weird. You can deal head-on with what I'm saying, it is fine, you don't need to agree with me. But the "Democrats aren't great" consensus on Lemmy is not exactly a persecuted minority, please don't try to introduce a narrative that they are.

[-] MrMakabar@slrpnk.net 12 points 6 days ago

Also only two comments mention plastic at all, which is odd given the topic.

[-] PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat 12 points 6 days ago

It's so weird. It's like a mad libs that only comes up with one answer.

"US Government fucked something up again because of course they did."

"Let's n͟o͟t͟ ͟v͟o͟t͟e͟ ͟f͟o͟r͟ ͟D͟e͟m͟o͟c͟r͟a͟t͟s͟!"

Like yeah, Biden did some unexpectedly good stuff on the climate, and some standard Democrat stuff which definitely isn't great. This is part of the latter. I'm not even sure it matters, since Trump will be in charge of implementing this treaty so it was DOA anyway, but regardless of that: Did you guys forget the real life Nazis are going to be in charge in a couple of months? It's going to take a ton of work to even have elections in four years that we can not-vote-for-Democrats in, let alone some good progressive change to keep pushing the Democrats towards something resembling a decent environmental policy. Just not voting, and then sitting back all satisifed like "that oughta do it," is such a mind-boggling strategy... and yet it's the one that always gets consistent airplay.

[-] franklin@lemmy.world 9 points 6 days ago

I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist, but I've definitely noticed it too.

[-] AwakenedAce@lemmy.blahaj.zone 7 points 6 days ago

Maybe it's just a popular opinion on here, so when people click on the thread and see their opinions being mentioned they don't add more comments saying the same stuff as there's no point.

But then when they see someone else say something that differs from their own opinions, it's not unlikely that people tend to reply more to try and express themselves if they feel their opinions are no longer in the majority.

[-] PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat 3 points 6 days ago

Yeah, could be. The other thing I thought of was maybe there's something about sorting by "Active" that means that my comment pushes it up into being seen by more people, and that's why there are more comments when that happens.

It's just odd, though. The flurry of responses that come in-between a stable "fuck the Democrats" narrative at the top of the comments, and another "fuck the Democrats" narrative at the top of the comments, aren't really any kind of disagreement with me. It's just other top-level comments and random conversation. I would have to be able to show a little snapshot of how the comments looked at different points in time to really put across what it is about it that makes it seem really weird to me, honestly.

[-] Taleya@aussie.zone 3 points 5 days ago

a large contingent of americans looove blaming the left for everything up to and including the actions of the right. It means they don't have to do any introspection

[-] abies_exarchia@lemm.ee 3 points 6 days ago

The democratic party establishment failed us in this last election and the wound is raw. OP’s post demonstrates further actions of the democrat leaders that are maligned with a just and livable world, and it feels like rubbing dirt in that wound. I think it’s pretty expected to see these ‘fuck democrat’ comments in response to this

[-] PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat 10 points 6 days ago

Raw emotional appeal, themes of betrayal
Tying everything back to not voting for Democrats as the most important thing
No real engagement with anything I said, the whole comment was just about the suspicious timing of comments. I wasn't trying to say it's weird that someone would blame something the Biden administration did on Biden. That part makes sense to me.
"Democrat leaders"

Yeah, sounds about right.

[-] ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net 4 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

Is an explanation for people posting angrily about democrats
No they didn't? What?
C/climate is the most active community on slrpnk.net and gets many more passerby comments from other instances. The timing isn't terribly unusual, especially considering the little preview text for the article explicitly mentions the biden administration dropping the ball on the environment again. Most people aren't going to read the article and only respond to the title/preview.
The corporate democrats are clearly the ones who hold the reins in the DNC (hence how Bernie got fucked over), why is it odd to say that?

[-] nothingcorporate@lemmy.today 18 points 6 days ago

The US never did; we've just reached the phase where villains don't feel like they need to hide their atrocities any more.

[-] Taleya@aussie.zone 6 points 5 days ago

Honestly, why the fuck did anyone ever expect any US administration to actually take meaningful action.

They're bought and fucking sold, the entire country

[-] Duamerthrax@lemmy.world 7 points 5 days ago

The national religion is The Economy. No one can ever get elected on anything that doesn't put that as the biggest issue. Hell, we'll elect fraudster fascists with a known, terrible business track record if he looks like a caricature of the rich.

[-] bravesilvernest@lemmy.ml 21 points 6 days ago

Can't wait to see what horrors our bodies create from ingesting all these plastics

[-] treefrog@lemm.ee 23 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

Cancer and infertility are the two main things. And accelerated ecosystem collapse, since this is a global pollutant.

[-] treefrog@lemm.ee 13 points 6 days ago

Fuck the Democrats, for real.

I'm so sick of them playing savior to the working class while working for corporate interests.

Harris was the last Democratic presidential candidate I will vote for, unless the party moves substantially to the left.

Campaign donations from special interests don't win elections. Votes do. And Biden just reminded me why I'm done voting for them.

[-] PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat 32 points 6 days ago

"My babysitter has clearly been drinking. That's not ideal. I think I'll let this serial killer watch the kids for a while, instead."

[-] treefrog@lemm.ee 11 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

In this case the babysitter is afraid the serial killer is more popular with corporate donors, so has started killing babies by putting microplastics in the formula.

And the DNC is signaling shifting further to the center (they mean further right). They're already as far right as I will vote.

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/11/15/centrist-democrats-chair-dnc-00189933

[-] PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat -2 points 6 days ago

Advocate for environmental groups? Give grief to the Democratic party, try to extract concessions from them, since they can at least be bargained with on environmental issues, where the Republicans literally want to have the environmental groups shot by the National Guard? Support particular independent candidates, inside or outside the Democratic party? Advocate for voting reform that gives third parties a realistic chance, to put pressure on the Democrats?

Nope. It's just "Let's do the Republicans." In the current system, that's what will happen if you don't vote for Democrats. Changing that system sounds great, but disengaging entirely isn't the way to do that.

At a broad foundational level, the American system is based on this: Concentrations of money and power will always attract corruption and tyranny. Always. It's just how government works. The Democrats are like that, the Republicans are like that. The Green Party is too. They pretty much instantly folded to malign influence, before they even really got started, and now they're a tragic explicit spoiler candidate puppet that isn't even making a convincing pretense of environmental progress as the goal. Even if your goal could succeed completely, and starving the Democrats could make them wither and get replaced by one-party Republican rule, and then something better arose in their place, without the generation-spanning catastrophe that would be that one-party Republican rule... whatever replaced them, would still be open to corruption.

There is a way to make progress. You have to fight for what you actually want. It's not easy. But the strategy of simply refusing to engage with the power-brokerage system, because the people currently in charge of it are bad people, brings broad smiles to the faces of all those corrupt Democrats who are annoyed they had to pass a little bit of climate change legislation and corporate tax increases under Biden. They love hearing that you're getting out of caring about politics. It means they can start to cater more to their core constituency. And they'll be fine, whether the Democratic Party does an inch to benefit the working class or not, or even if it stays around or not.

It's only the people in Washington who are trying to work for working people or the environment who will be hurt by your strategy.

[-] treefrog@lemm.ee 10 points 6 days ago

You mentioned a lot of strategies we can use to fight for what we want, and then said that none of those will work.

Then further down you suggested we should fight for what we want, but offer no concrete way to do that.

Letting Democrats know that they can't buy my vote with corporate campaign donations, is me fighting for what I want.

If they want my vote, they need to earn it by offering real solutions for my worsening material conditions. Not expect it simply because they're not Republicans.

During the Great depression, when the ruling class did give many concessions to the working class, we had a strong left-wing party in politics and we had left-wing organizing in the streets.

This tribalism you are demonstrating with the Democrats isn't working for me. And it's not working for the environment. As Biden just demonstrated.

[-] PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat 2 points 6 days ago

You mentioned a lot of strategies we can use to fight for what we want, and then said that none of those will work.

No, I said all of those will work, to some degree. Even refusing to vote within a targeted framework, where you're demanding certain concessions in exchange for your vote as part of an organized coalition, putting effective pressure on the party to make specific changes, is a pretty good strategy. It's how some key environmental legislation has gotten passed in decades past.

Letting Democrats know that they can’t buy my vote with corporate campaign donations, is me fighting for what I want.

In exactly the same way that refusing to touch the steering wheel until the car starts going a better direction is fighting not to crash the car.

[-] treefrog@lemm.ee 4 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

I am refusing to vote within a framework. If you look at my initial post I qualified that statement.

If the Democrats continue to move to the right, which they have shown some motions toward post election, I will no longer support their presidential candidates.

If they stay where they're at, I might. And I will still vote for Democrats running in other positions.

2024 was lost by ignoring the material conditions of the working class. As was 2016.

If they don't get the message, I'm going to bet on a different horse.

[-] jaemo@sh.itjust.works 24 points 6 days ago

Hey, as a non American, fuck your country, fuck the idiots leading it, and fuck every eligible voter for what the rest of us are about to endure as a result of your staggering, unbelievable ineptitude.

[-] clover@slrpnk.net 7 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

Damn, we (Americans) don't even have 1 person 1 vote... But I agree with the sentiment.

[-] treefrog@lemm.ee 7 points 6 days ago

As an eligible US voter can you tell me what you would have done differently in my position?

[-] PlexSheep@infosec.pub 8 points 6 days ago

Well, the obvious first thing is not voting for fascists. The other thing is pushing for real democracy, idk maybe do another civil rights movement.

[-] treefrog@lemm.ee 4 points 6 days ago

Well I voted for Harris and am pushing for another civil rights movement, as I don't trust the Democrats to really care about the material conditions of working-class people (domestically and worldwide) without left organizing and left political opposition.

I guess I'm just saying please don't say fuck all voters. Because that includes me and I am trying, as are others. And shaming people isn't a great motivator.

[-] PlexSheep@infosec.pub 2 points 5 days ago

I personally don't think "Fuck all voters" and recognize that it's difficult. Generalizing won't help but it's also a fact that almost half of reliable voters in the USA just voted for the fascists

I always thought it was ridiculous that the Democratic Party named itself that. Surely, in a democracy, that's like calling your party "party". Well no more, they really are the democratic party now.

[-] _pi@lemmy.ml 2 points 6 days ago

idk maybe do another civil rights movement.

Will get right on that chief.

[-] Maggoty@lemmy.world 5 points 5 days ago

All ahead on climate change everyone!

As long as it doesn't interfere in capitalist profits.

[-] kibiz0r@midwest.social 9 points 6 days ago

No cap frfr

[-] photonic_sorcerer@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 6 days ago

So, you're telling me Biden visiting the Amazon was nothing but posturing? Color me shocked.

[-] grue@lemmy.world 7 points 6 days ago

Fuck the Biden administration and their anticipatory obedience to the fascists.

this post was submitted on 20 Nov 2024

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