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[-] AnAmericanPotato@programming.dev 129 points 1 month ago

Disgusting and unsurprising.

Most web admins do not care. I've lost count of how many sites make me jump through CAPTCHAS or outright block me in private browsing or on VPN. Most of these sites have no sensitive information, or already know exactly who I am because I am already authenticating with my username and password. It's not something the actual site admins even think about. They click the button, say "it works on my machine!" and will happily blame any user whose client is not dead-center average.

Enter username, but first pass this CAPTCHA.

Enter password, but first pass this second CAPTCHA.

Here's another CAPTCHA because lol why not?

Some sites even have their RSS feed behind Cloudflare. And guess what that means? It means you can't fucking load it in a typical RSS reader. Good job!

The web is broken. JavaScript was a mistake. Return to ~~monke~~ gopher.

Fuck Cloudflare.

[-] SerotoninSwells@lemmy.world 54 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I get why you're frustrated and you have every right to be. I'm going to preface what I'm going to say next by saying I work in this industry. I'm not at Cloudflare but I am at a company that provides bot protection. I analyze and block bots for a living. Again, your frustrations are warranted.

  • Even if a site doesn't have sensitive information, it likely serves a captcha because of the amount of bots that do make requests that are scraping related. The volume of these requests can effectively DDoS them. If they're selling something, it can disrupt sales. So they lose money on sales and eat the load costs.

  • With more and more username and password leaks, credential stuffing is getting to be a bigger issue than anyone actually realizes. There aren't really good ways of pinpointing you vs someone that has somehow stolen your credentials. Bots are increasingly more and more sophisticated. Meaning, we see bots using aged sessions which is more in line with human behavior. Most of the companies implementing captcha on login segments do so to try and protect your data and financials.

  • The rise in unique, privacy based browsers is great and it's also hard to keep up with. It's been more than six months, but I've fingerprinted Pale Moon and, if I recall correctly, it has just enough red flags to be hard to discern between a human and a poorly configured bot.

Ok, enough apologetics. This is a cat and mouse game that the rest of us are being drug into. Sometimes I feel like this is a made up problem. Ultimately, I think this type of thing should be legislated. And before the bot bros jump in and say it's their right to scrape and take data it's not. Terms of use are plainly stated by these sites. They consider it stealing.

Thank you for coming to my Tedx Talk on bots.

Edit: I just want to say that allowing any user agent with "Pale Moon" or "Goanna" isn't the answer. It's trivially easy to spoof a user agent which is why I worked on fingerprinting it. Changing Pale Moon's user agent to Firefox is likely to cause you problems too. The fork they are using has different fingerprints than an up to date Firefox browser.

[-] AstralPath@lemmy.ca 18 points 1 month ago

Dude, thank you for this context. I was already aware of these considerations but just wanted to thank you for sharing this with everyone. Its participation like this that makes the internet a better place. 🍻

[-] SerotoninSwells@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago

That's very kind of you. Thank you for the kind words. 🍻

[-] Tiger@sh.itjust.works 7 points 1 month ago

Thank you for that info, very helpful.

[-] SerotoninSwells@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

Thank you for reading and considering the information.

[-] Knossos@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago

Also Cloudflare adds a caching layer, often physically closer to users. Increasing speed of delivery and reducing server costs. It's a no-brainer for server admins.

Also, I don't work for Cloudflare either. The animosity is new to me, and certainly something I'll look into.

[-] MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 month ago

But captchas have now proven useless, since bots are better at solving them now than humans?

[-] iopq@lemmy.world -1 points 1 month ago

Ever heard of counting attempts? Log the IP, present a CAPTCHA after 100 requests in a minute.

Besides, if I wrote a bot I would run a browser dialer from Chrome. It would request your site in a Chrome tab and appear completely legitimate to your stupid fingerprinting scripts

[-] Saik0Shinigami@lemmy.saik0.com 8 points 1 month ago

Ever heard of counting attempts? Log the IP, present a CAPTCHA after 100 requests in a minute.

Ever heard of IP rotation? This is one malicious source rotating through IPs over the course of 24 hours. They're attempting to credential stuff my logins ( on a production service ).

[-] SerotoninSwells@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago

Yes, the industry is well aware of this. We do behavioral detection on both sessions and IPs. This is fairly basic.

[-] singletona@lemmy.world 19 points 1 month ago

https://tildeverse.org/

Tilde.teams and tilde.club even have outwardly facing email accounts.

We have a newsgroup server.

We have a dedicated irc server.

Member gopher/https/gemini pages.

And other services.

And each tilde has it's own focus.

Be kind. Contribute as you can to discussions.

What is gemini

https://tilvids.com/videos/watch/e1d6ed23-315a-4fc6-8d5b-6d96d51e4819

Rocking the web bloat.

https://media.ccc.de/v/mch2022-83-rocking-the-web-bloat-modern-gopher-gemini-and-the-small-internet

Be Free.

[-] KeenFlame@feddit.nu 2 points 1 month ago
[-] singletona@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

It's not much, but it's home. :)

[-] hansolo@lemm.ee 16 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

LibreWolf is next, and it's not exactly niche. I'm seeing it more and more, and LW defaults, even dropping resist settings, gets bounced by CloudFlare every time.

[-] Botzo@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago

Fire dragon here and yeah, sometimes Google won't even let me log in either.

[-] 2xsaiko@discuss.tchncs.de 80 points 1 month ago

These bastards haven’t MITMed half the internet for nothing. This isn’t the first time they abuse that either.

I hate that I once fell for it too when I just started out hosting stuff and put it behind their proxy.

[-] Spaniard@lemmy.world 20 points 1 month ago

What do you use now instead of cloudflare?

[-] Potatisen@lemmy.world 11 points 1 month ago
[-] pogodem0n@lemmy.world 40 points 1 month ago

"Man in the middle". They are used by a lot of web services as a proxy, usually to prevent DDOS attacks.

[-] mox@lemmy.sdf.org 11 points 1 month ago

And when Cloudflare is the proxy for a web site, it's Cloudflare that provides the HTTPS connection, meaning that you don't actually have an encrypted channel directly to the site. Cloudflare is the man-in-the-middle eavesdropping on all of your communications with that site. Your bank transactions, your medical records, your personal messages, etc.

[-] orbituary@lemmy.dbzer0.com 51 points 1 month ago

On librewolf, i get blocked. its a firefox fork and still it happens. had to set up a Firefox User Agent plugin.

[-] idunnololz@lemmy.world 11 points 1 month ago

Its kind of funny but thats how user agents have been for a while. It's historically just been browsers pretending to be one another.

https://webaim.org/blog/user-agent-string-history/

[-] MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Yeah and that's why it's one of the basics of the basics you learn as a software developer that you shouldn't sniff the useragent, because it's unreliable and causes issues. Yet all big webpages (especially those pretending to be a software) do it, causing issues.

Just don't do user agent sniffing, do feature detection instead.

[-] sunzu2@thebrainbin.org 51 points 1 month ago

Lol... You gonna browse how daddy told you or you won't get to browse

[-] Dsklnsadog@lemmy.dbzer0.com 45 points 1 month ago

I would be very interested to know how they plan to resolve these issues with "Ladybird." Using a new engine will likely clash with the FALSE "security measures" of many websites and harm the browsing experience. It’s often said that users should demand respect for web standards, but in the meantime, as usability declines, users will gradually drift away. Firefox learned this lesson the hard way.

[-] AdrianTheFrog@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago

Servo is another wip web browser, managed by the Linux foundation's European branch. It's a little less far along but is making relatively quick progress now. Apparently discord already mostly works, with sending messages currently being a problem.

[-] turnip@sh.itjust.works 39 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I can't use my Browser without it being created by a tech giant, cant use my new computer without having my software uefi signed by Microsoft, AI will soon need me to have my GPU licensed and registered.

The world is heading to crap.

[-] Jerry@feddit.online 9 points 1 month ago

I just duplicated this. I downloaded Pale Moon and went to https://hear-me.social and clicked on "Register". It puts up a Cloudflare "managed challenge" which loops endlessly when using Pale Moon, but not the other browsers I've tried it with, including Zen, another Firefox fork.

It's a problem, for sure.

[-] randamumaki@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 points 1 month ago

As a staunch Pale Moon user, Cloudflare is just being a bully and I circumvent their nonsense when I need to desperately use a particular site or just don't go to that site anymore if I can do without.

[-] SerotoninSwells@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago

Greed. I honestly don't know if they're even aware of the problem. Most corporations have cut teams to the bone and I can't see Cloudflare being an exception. The janitor is probably writing detection rules now.

[-] Lila_Uraraka@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 points 1 month ago

Pale Moon still exists? Huh

[-] zorro@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I feel like I remember reading that the pale moon JavaScript engine was broken and causing the capcha to break repeatedly?

Let me see if I can find sources

EDIT: Looks like I was remembering a previous issue where the captchas were causing the entire pale moon browser to crash. I believe this has been fixed, but the new issue is a much less exciting block.

[-] collapse_already@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 month ago

I wonder what happens if you use Pale Moon but set the user agent to Firefox.

[-] dantheclamman@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

Another comment suggested that helped with LibreWolf, but that is a closer fork than Pale Moon, so not sure

[-] Limerance@piefed.social 1 points 1 month ago

How can I test, if I get blocked? I just started using Waterfox and so far no issues.

[-] Jerry@feddit.online 2 points 1 month ago

You can go to https://hear-me.social and click on the register button. This puts up a Cloudflare managed challenge screen which endlessly loops when using Pale Moon. It would be interesting to see if Waterfox has the same issue.

[-] Limerance@piefed.social 4 points 1 month ago

Works fine with Waterfox.

[-] circledot@feddit.org 3 points 1 month ago

Works with librewolf.

[-] AceFuzzLord@lemm.ee 2 points 1 month ago

Took a minute and a refresh, but it worked on Ironfox on android.

[-] MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

So make useragent sniffing useless by all being Chrome?

Funnily enough, some webpages work better if you block webgl and set the user agent to Lynx or Dillo.

this post was submitted on 04 Mar 2025
384 points (98.7% liked)

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