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submitted 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) by ReanuKeeves@lemm.ee to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml
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[-] HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com 7 points 2 days ago

There was a woman in my microbiology program who did not believe in evolution. We extracted dna in labs and put plasmides into ecoli and such. It was weird.

[-] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 4 points 2 days ago

It isn't like religion is incompatible with logic and science.

There are some religions that require rejecting science, and some that require blind faith, but it isn't all throbs religions, and it isn't inherent to religion itself.

The only time it takes any mental gymnastics is when the religion does reject science as a methodology (as opposed to rejecting blind faith in science) and/or require that each follower must agree to reject it as well.

Something like neopaganism isn't as prone to excluding science as methodology, and berry very often supports science as a body of knowledge, but focuses on the parts of life that science doesn't cover. It happens still, and some of the zealots from those religions can be just as crazy as zealots from something like christianity. But, on average, your typical Wiccans aren't going to be science haters, they're just more interested in other things.

Now, you will get a lot of those sorts choosing to reject science based information on specific things, but that's no more or less than when your average agnostic or atheist buys into pseudoscience. That means it isn't really a religion thing, it's a human thing.

You'll find plenty of monotheists in science even, and they're not conflicted because science, logic is about the concrete, the physical world. They can freely choose to lol are their holy texts as humanly made, but divinely inspired, and thus a product of its time. So there's no conflict. The scientific method simply explores the world as it is, seeking a better understanding of what their god created, without worrying about the why.

There doesn't even have to be a conflict in the Abrahamic sects between evolution and creation. If the specific sect and follower assumes that god is all powerful and all knowing, them evolution is simply the will of god as it expresses itself over time. Or, that god created a universe that is meant to grow and change independently, and thus evolution was part of that creation from the beginning.

As much as religious thought can be a limitation to thinking, it doesn't have to be. They just have to accept that the religious stuff is about the soul, and that souls aren't relevant to logic or science. When that way of thinking is in place, it's possible to logically know that no religion can be proven any more than the existence of the divine can be disproven, so it simply isn't relevant to science at all.

Fwiw, I'm not religious. The closest I get is an appreciation of Buddhist principles, and taoist outlook on viewing reality. They're "fun", they give a platform to work from in dealing with the unpleasant aspects of existence, so they have value. But that's not the same as being religious, or even "spiritual". Plus, when the topic of religion comes up, I can throw those out there as shorthand for "I'm not interested in your religion becoming my religion, thank you."

[-] noretus@sopuli.xyz 5 points 2 days ago

What if I were to propose to you that there's no way to prove that matter comes before consciousness? For all you know, everything exists inside consciousness but most people believe matter is the prior condition. This is pure logic. But when it's brought up to science minded people, they tend to get very uppity about it.

Beliefs be like that.

[-] Ephera@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 days ago

To me, that's a rather pointless thought experiment, similar to the conspiracy theory that we're in a big simulation. Like, yeah, there's no way to disprove this idea, but if it were the case, then we still gotta work within the constraints that we're given. It's not like you can be conscious differently or escape the simulation or whatever.

Science-minded folks might dismiss that idea perhaps less favorably as "unscientific", but that's basically saying the same thing. If there's no way to prove or disprove an idea, then we call it "unscientific", which is kind of just means there's no point in spending time thinking about it. This is also taking into account that it would be provable or disprovable, if it had an impact on our reality. Theoretically something could have an impact on our reality and then trick us into believing that it does not, but yeah, at that point we need quite a lot of unproven theories stacked on top of each other and there's still nothing we can do about it...

[-] pupbiru@aussie.zone 6 points 2 days ago

i’d say it’s less that people “get very uppity about it” and more that it’s not something that’s particularly relevant. we have no evidence for or against, and the outcome doesn’t really change how we interact with the world

likewise the universe could be entirely chaos and everything that exists in this instant: your memories and understanding of the universe and everything to back it up could just be the current arrangement of things and will be torn apart in the very next instant

but it’s not really a useful position to form conjectures from: if it is, it doesn’t matter what you do; if it isn’t, then you should act as if the universe will be here and that your memories are valid

[-] killeronthecorner@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago

we have no evidence for or against, and the outcome doesn’t really change how we interact with the world

I've heard it described as "flying spaghetti monster for the religious" because, much like FSM, it's a useful allegory to frame the point, but not very interesting beyond that.

[-] ReanuKeeves@lemm.ee 5 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

I see where you're drawing the correlation because we can neither prove nor disprove the existence of higher powers the same as I can't tell you whether you are a brain floating in amniotic fluid running through a simulation or not. People approaching philosophical questions usually reach an impasse because that is the nature of philosophy.

But a religious person would be more akin to someone telling you that they know we are in fact floating brains powering an AI civilization. They can't provide you with solid proof but you are incorrect if you think otherwise.

[-] noretus@sopuli.xyz 3 points 2 days ago

No but the latter is what science-minded people do. They insist that matter comes before consciousness without being able to prove it, though what's extremely obvious in everyone's direct experience is that consciousness is needed before anything else is said about the world. It's a false status quo.

[-] ReanuKeeves@lemm.ee 4 points 2 days ago

There is a prevelant theory but it's still an unanswered philosophical question that noone truly intelligent would tell you they knew definitively. Anyone asserting that matter 100% comes before conciousness is on the same wavelength as someone telling you there is 100% a god controlling everything.

So we can at least agree that people who are confident in something unproveable are objectively unintelligent.

[-] Maeve@kbin.earth 1 points 1 day ago

I wouldn't say unintelligent, I would say untrained to think beyond certain constraints. We break through one barrier, then another.

[-] ReanuKeeves@lemm.ee 1 points 1 day ago

A big part of intelligence is understanding when you don't know something. You'll find that there are a lot of people who will make things up as they go because they don't want to admit they don't know something, which is unwise. So being confident in something that noone can know is not typically an intelligent thing to do.

Most people can be taught knowledge but your intelligence potential is mostly genetic, set at birth based on how well your processes run. Environmental factors will affect how much of your potential you will achieve.

[-] Maeve@kbin.earth 1 points 1 day ago

On the face, it seems reasonable, but I'm not so sure. I'll think about that.

[-] ReanuKeeves@lemm.ee 1 points 1 day ago

I think you may be taking the word unintelligent as an insult, which it of course can be used as one but in this context I'm not using it as an insult.

They mentioned that science minded people will confidently say matter comes before conciousness as proof that logical people are confident in unproveable things as well. That statement was false to begin with because it was based on that science minded person being logical.

Being confident in something unproven is not the logical or intelligent thing to do so I was explaining why that example doesn't work as the example they gave was not of a logical intelligent thinker that I was asking about in my title.

[-] Maeve@kbin.earth 1 points 1 day ago

Lol. That's... Quite a stretch. I do not consider this context as being insulting. I said I'm doing this between chores, and I need to think about it. Nothing more, nothing less.

[-] ReanuKeeves@lemm.ee 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

I'm clarifying why I said unintelligent because I think this is your second time pointing out the word in separate comments so it comes off as you having an issue with the word

How are your chores going?

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[-] noretus@sopuli.xyz 2 points 2 days ago

You're wiggling a bit but let's go with that and get to your original question.

Based on your responses, you probably hold a core belief that matter comes before consciousness. You're smart enough to admit it's not a certainty but you've probably lived your whole life fairly assured it's the case. You speak English well so you have at least been exposed to western culture - which is very materialistic (religious or no, Christianity is also functionally materialistic), and so the core belief both serves you well, and is positively reinforced.

Any new information you get is subconsciously aligned to this core belief. Any decision you make is informed by it. You have a network of data in your head and it all connects to this and some other core beliefs. The same way a religious person can be highly logical but they hold a different core belief and so subtly, everything they know aligns to that belief. The more irrational the core belief, the more convoluted the links are of course but it makes sense to them - they just may not be able to represent it to you with the symbols that is language. And sometimes you'll just get them doing the loading screen face when they try to rationalize their views - then it just becomes a question of which core VALUE is deeper for them; rationality or their religious view.

If rationality is more valuable, it necessarily demolishes the religious view. It demolishes a core belief to which they have aligned all their knowledge about the world. Which is a hell of a trip, and can be very scary. Which is also why rationality often loses.

[-] Maeve@kbin.earth 2 points 2 days ago

Maybe some hold both in esteem and sort ideas accordingly holding all is a bit of the whole.

[-] noretus@sopuli.xyz 3 points 2 days ago

Sure, many people do that kind of a dance or compartmentalization. But that only lasts as long as nothing severe comes to challenge it. Sudden death of a loved one is a cliche but commonly forces people to conclude something.

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[-] ReanuKeeves@lemm.ee 2 points 2 days ago

Born and raised in north america, went to a baptist church as a kid so I'm fairly familiar with the bible as well as different types of religious people you'll meet.

As an agnostic now, my only core belief is I know that I don't know. That's something I apply to any philosophical question so it's alien to me that some people can separate logic and religion.

[-] noretus@sopuli.xyz 2 points 2 days ago

For me, I get that logic too is just models that predict things. Backwards or forwards. But it doesn't answer what anything is. You can only EXPERIENCE what something is, but you can never accurately represent it. Because the moment you try to represent an experience, it's not the experience itself, just a representation. So logical conclusion is that the only way to know something for sure, is to experience it as it is before any representation.

People with religious experiences may get to the ineffable truth but then they get enamored by their own attempts to represent it. They focus on the representation, instead of the experience, and they start to insist that their representation is the bestest and most correctest - because everything in their head aligns to it. Then it just becomes a matter of who has the most charismatic foghorns and the most appealing representation. Which has a very reasonable logic of it's own, as far as it goes.

[-] ReanuKeeves@lemm.ee 2 points 2 days ago

Logic is reasoning based on proveable facts so no it's not going to tell you what something is, just how probable something is.

That wouldn't be the logical conclusion because we are limited as humans. We make mistakes, we don't understand everything, we misremember, we can even gaslight ourselves such as the mandela effect. If 50 people told me they experienced an alien abduction, that doesn't make it logically true, now if they were to show me proveable facts of the abduction then I would be more inclined to believe.

I'm not sure what you mean with the last paragraph, you are clearly describing illogical subjective experiences but calling them "very reasonable logic of it's own". What you are describing isn't logic, what you're describing is the opposite of logic. Someone claiming something they believe is true but can't provide validity.

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[-] Maeve@kbin.earth 2 points 2 days ago

But a religious person would be more akin to someone telling you that they know we are in fact floating brains powering an AI civilization. They can't provide you with solid proof but you are incorrect if you think otherwise.

Some do. The loud/belligerent don't necessarily make a majority. The rest know that faith is exactly that, and know the difference between faith and belief and proven facts.

[-] lordnikon@lemmy.world 4 points 2 days ago

Also looking at religion as a social phenomenon vs something supernatural . Some people can enjoy the ceremony and community and drop all the dogma. I know I'm an atheist but still enjoy Christmas , Hanukkah, Vesak, Diwali. Nice thing about not being tied to the dogma means you can pick and chose what you like.

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[-] kn33@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago

I consider myself a very logical person. I consider myself "religish". Mainly, the idea of death being the end makes me very anxious, so I choose to believe it's not, which inherently brings one to religion of some sort.

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this post was submitted on 07 Mar 2025
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