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Tesla self driving is never going to work well enough without sensors - cameras are not enough. It’s fundamentally dangerous and should not be driving unsupervised (or maybe at all).
Accurate.
Each fatality I found where a Tesla kills a motorcyclist is a cascade of 3 failures.
- The car's cameras don't detect the biker, or it just doesn't stop for some reason.
- The driver isn't paying attention to detect the system failure.
- The Tesla's driver alertness tech fails to detect that the driver isn't paying attention.
Taking out the driver will make this already-unacceptably-lethal system even more lethal.
- Self-driving turns itself off seconds before a crash, giving the driver an impossibly short timespan to rectify the situation.
... Also accurate.
God, it really is a nut punch. The system detects the crash is imminent.
Rather than automatically try to evade... the self-driving tech turns off. I assume it is to reduce liability or make the stats look better. God.
Yep, that one was purely about hitting a certain KPI of 'miles driven on autopilot without incident'. If it turns off before the accident, technically the driver was in control and to blame, so it won't show up in the stats and probably also won't be investigated by the NTSB.
so it won't show up in the stats
Hopefully they wised up by now and record these stats properly....?
NHTSA collects data if self-driving tech was active within 30 seconds of the impact.
The companies themselves do all sorts of wildcat shit with their numbers. Tesla's claimed safety factor right now is 8x human. So to drive with FSD is 8x safer than your average human driver, that's what they say on their stock earnings calls. Of course, that's not true, not based on any data I've seen, they haven't published data that makes it externally verifiable (unlike Waymo, who has excellent academic articles and insurance papers written about their 12x safer than human system).
If they ever fixed it, I'm sure Musk fired whomever is keeping score now. He's going to launch the robotaxi stuff soon and it's going to kill a bunch of people.
Even when it is just milliseconds before the crash, the computer turns itself off.
Later, Tesla brags that the autopilot was not in use during this ( terribly, overwhelmingly) unfortunate accident.
Most frustrating thing is, as far as I can tell, Tesla doesn't even have binocular vision, which makes all the claims about humans being able to drive with vision only even more blatantly stupid. At least humans have depth perception. And supposedly their goal is to outperform humans?
Tesla's argument of "well human eyes are like cameras therefore we shouldn't use LiDAR" is so fucking dumb.
Human eyes have good depth perception and absolutely exceptional dynamic range and focusing ability. They also happen to be linked up to a rapid and highly efficient super computer far outclassing anything that humanity has ever devised, certainly more so than any computer added to a car.
And even with all those advantages humans have, we still crash from time to time and make smaller mistakes regularly.
They also happen to be linked up to a rapid and highly efficient super computer far outclassing anything that humanity has ever devised
A neural network that has been in development for 650 million years.
Lidar needs to be a mandated requirement for these systems.
Or at least something other than just cameras. Even just adding ultrasonic senses to the front would be an improvement.
Honestly, emergency braking with LIDAR is mature and cheap enough at this point that is should be mandated for all new cars.
How about we disallow it completely, until it's proven to be SAFER than a human driver. Because, why even allow it if it's only as safe?
Hey guys relax! It's all part of the learning experience of Tesla FSD.
Some of you may die, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
Regards
Elon Musk
CEO of Tesla
P.S. Volunteers needed for the Mars mission as well.
Is musk going, because I vote to be on whatever planet he isn't.
News on the first mission: Meteoroid crashes into full flying SpaceX rocket, killing all aboard.
On a quick read, I didn't see the struck motorcycles listed. Last I heard, a few years ago, was that this mainly affected motorcycles with two rear lights that are spaced apart and fairly low to the ground. I believe this is mostly true for Harleys.
The theory I recall was that this rear light configuration made the Tesla assume it was looking (remember, only cameras without depth data) at a car that was further down the road - and acceleration was safe as a result. It miscategorised the motorcycle so badly that it misjudged it's position entirely.
Whatever it is, it's unacceptable and they should really ban Tesla's implementation until they fix some fundamental issues.
I also saw that theory! That's in the first link in the article.
The only problem with the theory: Many of the crashes are in broad daylight. No lights on at all.
I didn't include the motorcycle make and model, but I did find it. Because I do journalism, and sometimes I even do good journalism!
The models I found are: Kawasaki Vulcan (a cruiser bike, just like the Harleys you describe), Yamaha YZF-R6 (a racing-style sport bike with high-mount lights), and a Yamaha V-Star (a "standard" bike, fairly low lights, and generally a low-slung bike). Weirdly, the bike models run the full gamut of the different motorcycles people ride on highways, every type is represented (sadly) in the fatalities.
I think you're onto something with the faulty depth sensors. Sensing distance is difficult with optical sensors. That's why Tesla would be alone in the motorcycle fatality bracket, and that's why it would always be rear-end crashes by the Tesla.
At least in EU, you can’t turn off motorcycle lights. They’re always on. In eu since 2003, and in US, according to the internet, since the 70s.
The ridiculous thing is, it has 3 cameras pointing forward, you only need 2 to get stereoscopic depth perception with cameras...why the fuck are they not using that!?
Edit: I mean, I know why, it's because it's cameras with three different lenses used for different things (normal, wide angle, and telescopic) so they're not suitable for it, but it just seems stupid to not utilise that concept when you insist on a camera only solution.
Still probably a good idea to keep an eye on that Tesla behind you. Or just let them past.
Are you saying Harley drivers are fair game?
Stop dehumanizing drivers who killed people.
Feature, wrongly called, Full Self-Driving, shall be supervised at any time.
If you’re going to say your car has “full self driving”, it should have that, not “full self driving (but needs monitoring.)” or “full self driving (but it disconnects 2 seconds before impact.)”.
This is news? Fortnine talked about it two years ago.
TL;DR Tesla removed LIDAR to save a buck and the cameras see two red dots that the 'puter thinks it's a far away car at night when indeed it's a close motorcycle.
It could be two motorcycles side by side.
as daily rider, i must add having a tesla behind to the list of road hazards to look out
I'm on mine far more often than I'm in a car. I think Tesla found out that I point and laugh at any cyber trucks I see at red lights while I'm out and is trying to kill me.
I'm wondering how that stacks up to human drivers. Since the data is redacted I'm guessing not well at all.
If it were good, we'd be seeing regular updates on Twitter, I imagine.
Why is self-driving even allowed?
Because muh freedum, EU are a bunch of commies for not allowing this awesome innovation on their roads
(I fucking love living in the EU)
I'm not sure how that's possible considering no one manufactures self-driving cars that I know of. Certainly not Tesla.
Five years ago, you could not have brought this up without Musk simps defending it.
this post was submitted on 02 Apr 2025
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