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[-] heavydust@sh.itjust.works 48 points 3 weeks ago

No debate, std::endl can be a disaster on some platforms due to flushing crap all the time.

[-] mmddmm@lemm.ee 36 points 3 weeks ago

It's a very C++ thing that the language developers saw the clusterfuck that is stream flushing on the kernel and decided that the right course of action was to create another fucking layer of hidden inconsistent flushing.

I hear C++ was greatly inspired by the fifth circle of hell.

[-] jdeath@lemm.ee 2 points 3 weeks ago

programmers manage to do stupid shit in every language. i was wondering if there was a way to stop them, and golang comes close but maybe proves it can't be done. idk!

[-] joyjoy@lemm.ee 20 points 3 weeks ago

Just because the box says something is flushable doesn't mean you should flush it.

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[-] pelya@lemmy.world 30 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

printf is superior and more concise, and snprintf is practically the only C string manipulation function that is not painful to use.

Try to print a 32-bit unsigned int as hexadecimal number of exactly 8 digits, using cout. You can do std::hex and std::setw(8) and std::setfill('0') and don't forget to use std::dec afterwards, or you can just, you know, printf("%08x") like a sane person.

Just don't forget to use -Werror=format but that is the default option on many compilers today.

C++23 now includes std::print which is exactly like printf but better, so the whole argument is over.

[-] SqueakyBeaver@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 3 weeks ago

I went digging in cppref at the format library bc I thought c++20 or c++23 added something cool.

Found std::print and was about to reply to this comment to share it bc I thought it was interesting. Then I read the last sentence.

Darn you and your predicting my every move /j

[-] Oinks@lemmy.blahaj.zone 23 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I am very sorry to remind everyone about the existence of Visual Basic, but it has:

  • VbCrLf
  • VbNewLine
  • ControlChars.CrLf
  • ControlChars.NewLine
  • Environment.NewLine
  • Chr(13) & Chr(10)

And I know what you're asking: Yes, of course all of them have subtly different behavior, and some of them only work in VB.NET and not in classic VB or VBA.

The only thing you can rely on is that "\r\n" doesn't work.

[-] MTK@lemmy.world 4 points 3 weeks ago

Apology not accepted, fuck you for reminding me!

[-] jdeath@lemm.ee 3 points 3 weeks ago

great reminder to avoid microsoft products as much as i can

[-] ulterno@programming.dev 20 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Simple. \n when you just want a newline.
endl when you need to flush at the moment.

Useful in case you are printing a debug output right before some function that might do bed stuff to buffers.


Edit: I wrote println instead of endl somehow. Guess I need more downtime

[-] embed_me@programming.dev 5 points 3 weeks ago

I only program in C. I was under the assumption that \n also flushes

[-] pelya@lemmy.world 3 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

It depends on whether you are printing to a terminal or to a file (and yes the terminal is also a file), and even then you can control the flushing behaviour using something like unbuffer

[-] ulterno@programming.dev 2 points 3 weeks ago

I remember having to fflush a couple of times.

[-] LambdaRX@sh.itjust.works 17 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I prefer \n for 0.001% better performance

[-] Lembot_0001@lemm.ee 25 points 3 weeks ago

I prefer \n for less typing.

[-] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 2 points 3 weeks ago

I prefer endl for more typing because it lets me pretend to work more than I am

[-] jdeath@lemm.ee 2 points 3 weeks ago

^ least deranged coder

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[-] BananaOnionJuice@lemmy.dbzer0.com 17 points 3 weeks ago
std::cout << "\nwhy not both" << std::endl;
[-] Gustephan@lemmy.world 11 points 3 weeks ago

Fuck endl, all my homies hate endl

[-] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 2 points 3 weeks ago

Cout << "\n"; is dumb and you should feel bad

[-] Gustephan@lemmy.world 1 points 3 weeks ago

You're right, that is incredibly dumb. Just not for the reasons you think it is. Imagine using iostream rather than stdio and unironically trying to clown on \n

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[-] diemartin@sh.itjust.works 7 points 3 weeks ago
fprintf(stdout, "%c", '\012');
[-] Archr@lemmy.world 7 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)
[-] Croquette@sh.itjust.works 4 points 3 weeks ago

I just learned that in Python, it's fucking terrible. Python is a fucking mess and my next script will be in a different language.

[-] jdeath@lemm.ee 4 points 3 weeks ago

python is a bad joke that never ends

[-] qaz@lemmy.world 4 points 3 weeks ago

Perhaps TS is not a terrible language for shell scripts after all

[-] Croquette@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Never tried it, but I will probably be more at home than python.

[-] andMoonsValue@lemmy.world 3 points 3 weeks ago

As a python lover, I have to ask, what don't you like about it and what languages do you generally prefer?

[-] Croquette@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 weeks ago

I prefer strongly typed languages. Using bytes isn't intuitive.

Transforming certain data types into other data types is often not straightforward.

The identation is the worst though. Let me format the code however I want.

[-] rikudou@lemmings.world 5 points 3 weeks ago

In PHP it exists as well. I try to use PHP_EOL but when I'm lazy I simply do "\n".

[-] lord_ryvan@ttrpg.network 1 points 3 weeks ago

For me the answer is “Building backend applications with it instead of CLI applications, like Lerdorf intended.”

But also "\n" because it's easier and PHP_EOL is just an alias for "\n"; it's not even platform-dependent.

[-] rikudou@lemmings.world 2 points 3 weeks ago

PHP_EOL depends on your host system, it's \r\n on Windows.

I don't really want to use what Lerdorf intended, PHP <= 4 was horrible, 5.x was mainly getting slowly rid of nonsense and with 7.x PHP started its slow path of redemption and entered its modern era.

While Lerdorf's vision was great at that time for its intended use case, I wouldn't want to build anything serious in it.

[-] lord_ryvan@ttrpg.network 1 points 3 weeks ago

It actually outputs "\n" on a Windows system, but modern Windows to recognise that as enough of a newline, nowadays.

I don't really want to use what Lerdorf intended, PHP <= 4 was horrible

Actually a great point!

[-] ArbitraryValue@sh.itjust.works 3 points 3 weeks ago

C++ style text streams are bad and a dead-end design and '\n'.

[-] astrsk@fedia.io 3 points 3 weeks ago

Just puts(“I’m a teapot”); :)

[-] r00ty@kbin.life 3 points 3 weeks ago

Maybe c# has similar. There's \r\n or \n like c++ and Environment.NewLine.

Probably it's similar in that Environment.NewLine takes into account the operating system in use and I wonder if endl in c++ does the same thing?

[-] vithigar@lemmy.ca 4 points 3 weeks ago

C# also has verbatim strings, in which you can just put a literal newline.

string foo = @"This string 
has a line break!";
[-] Sibbo@sopuli.xyz 3 points 3 weeks ago

Wasn't this {fmt} library merged into STL now? Does this solve this issue?

Anyways, there was also a constant that is the OS line ending without a flush, right?

[-] schnurrito@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 3 weeks ago

Kinda in Java, you can call System.out.println or you can call System.out.print and explicitly write the newline.

[-] uranibaba@lemmy.world 2 points 3 weeks ago

I haven't looked at the code but I always assumed that println was a call to print with a new line added to the original input.
Something like this:

void print(String text) { ... }
void println(String text) { this.print(text + '\n'); }
[-] Scoopta@programming.dev 2 points 3 weeks ago

That is pretty much what it does except it doesn't hardcode \n but instead uses the proper line ending for the platform it's running on.

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[-] palordrolap@fedia.io 2 points 3 weeks ago

If endl is a function call and/or macro that magically knows the right line ending for whatever ultimately stores or reads the output stream, then, ugly though it is, endl is the right thing to use.

If a language or compiler automatically "do(es) the right thing" with \n as well, then check your local style guide. Is this your code? Do what you will. Is this for your company? Better to check what's acceptable.

If you want to guarantee a Unix line ending use \012 instead. Or \cJ if your language is sufficiently warped.

[-] BatmanAoD@programming.dev 9 points 3 weeks ago

It's a "stream manipulator" function that not only generates a new line, it also flushes the stream.

[-] pelya@lemmy.world 4 points 3 weeks ago

Ah don't worry, if you do fopen(file, "w") on Windows and forget to use "wb" flag, it will automatically replace all your \n with \r\n when you do fwrite, then you will try to debug for half a day your corrupted jpeg file, which totally never happened to me because I'm an experienced C++ developer who can never make such a novice mistake.

[-] slazer2au@lemmy.world 1 points 3 weeks ago

As long as it doesn't end in ;

[-] istdaslol@feddit.org 1 points 3 weeks ago

\n is fun until you’re an a system that needs an additional \r

[-] edinbruh@feddit.it 5 points 3 weeks ago

Unix needed only \n because it had complex drivers that could replace \n with whatever sequence of special characters the printer needed. Also, while carriage return is useful, they saw little use for line feed

On dos (which was intended for less powerful hardware than unix) you had to actually use the correct sequence which often but not always was \r\n (because teleprinters used that and because it's the "most correct" one).

Now that teleprinters don't exist, and complex drivers are not an issue for windows, and everyone prefers to have a single \n, windows still uses \r\n, for backward compatibility.

[-] Arghblarg@lemmy.ca 1 points 3 weeks ago

Bedeviled NXP/ARM SDK stdlib. Hate it, we need \n\r there. Why????!?!?! What a PITA.

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this post was submitted on 05 Apr 2025
144 points (87.9% liked)

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