Facts don't care about your feelings.

You can always find fringe groups. It's a bit pathetic to so openly signal that you know that's what you're doing. You've picked massively marginal, tiny and unimportant groups. It's really embarrassing for you man. I mean, really? Boston Review? C'mon man, grow up.

How many Jewish groups share your opinion that the Jews alone, among all the peoples of the world, have no right to national self-determination?

And I swear to fucking God if you add a Naturei Karta link, a group of less than 2,000 members globally, you will have problems.

Did you mean to reply to my comment? Not sure how that's relevant.

Anyway, you endorse a 1,500 year old antisemitic conspiracy theory, so I'm not sure why you think you deserve to be treated with respect or dignity.

Everyone rational has always believed this.

By openly identifying your endorsement of an ancient and false antisemitic trope, you've invalidated your right to have any opinion about anything.

Bye.

No wonder Lemmy is a Jew-free, Judenrein website with people like you dominating it.

It is notoriously hard to find non-radicalized folks after repeatedly dropping bombs on their homes.

Sure. It was hard after WW2 with Germany and Japan. America literally nuked two Japanese cities, more or less wiping them from the map, killing hundreds of thousands of civilians, many orders of times greater than have been killed in this defensive war by Israel.

But we managed to do it.

We did in fact succeed in both countries in deradicalising them and now they're both thriving democracies.

If that was genuinely Isreal’s aim they would be limiting their intervention to targeted strikes or utilizing the Palestinian social apparatus to try and secure custody of the most extreme Hamas members… they’d also be rabidly going after any Isreali settlers threatening the peace process.

This would only be true if you had literally zero clue about the extent of Hamas' physical embeddedness within the infrastructure of Gaza. They've had 17 years to turn the entire strip into a deathtrap. Particularly easy to do that when they don't care about Palestinian civilians. They're all just 'martyrs', as Haniyeh agreed.

Does Israel want a Palestinian state? No, not really. Especially not after October 7th. But it was willing to go along with that in the 1990s after the First Intifada made its point with dignity. In December 2000, they accepted President Clinton's offer to the Palestinians of a two-state solution, with a Palestinian state with a capital in East Jerusalem, some minor landswaps for the largest WB settlements, Palestinian airspace sovereignty, shared custody over the Temple Mount, etc.

The response was that Arafat walked away and launched the Second Intifada, a multi-year onslaught of wave after wave of suicide bombers, mass shootings, driving vehicles into crowds, bombing restaurants, and slaughtering schoolchildren. The Palestinians also had the distinction of inventing an entirely unprecedented form of terrorism: they pioneered the use of children as suicide bombers.

The Israeli left, which had pinned its colours to the 'land for peace' strategy which had worked with Egypt (Sinai) and Jordan, has never recovered from the Palestinian Second Intifada. The Intifada only ended when Israel created the walls and security checkpoints across and around the West Bank, the same thing which Palestinians today so hate. Well, guess what, maybe you should have made better choices..

So does Israel today want a Palestinian state? No. Why would they? They offered one in 2000 and got wave after wave of suicide bombers. They pulled out of Gaza unilaterally in 2005 and gave the Palestinians a democratic election. They elected Hamas, which culminated in October 7th, the single worst slaughter of Jews since the Holocaust. You've got the West Bank where the PA and UNRWA teach children how to count and do geometry by talking about firing rockets at Tel Aviv.

In a future scenario where the Palestinians were willing to live in peace next to Israel? Many Israelis would still say yes. But nobody in Israel thinks that's ever going to be the actual scenario, and if they did then October 7th more or less decided that one for them.

You aren't being clever by doubling down on an antisemitic canard.

Gaza has restrictions from israel since 1967

Sure. So what? For the next 10 years it averaged nearly 10% GDP growth per year.

The more tight restrictions get, the more hate there will be feom the affected people.

I think this rests on a fundamental misunderstanding of the conditions in Gaza pre-October 7th.

Gaza was pretty wealthy. The average income exceeded that of their neighbouring Egyptians. Yes there were difficulties importing some goods or products, but it was rarely impossible for consumer goods. Plus, in the end, they (as we now know) had miles of smuggling tunnels.

That's one reason why Egypt started squealing when Israel began to move into Rafah. There were minimal civilian casualties, but the IDF discovered the vast tunnels, some big enough to move a tank through, between Rafah and Egypt.

The idea that everyone was sort of sitting around in tents and mud is nonsense.

They also received billions of dollars in international aid, which Hamas of course simply spent building weapons and terror dungeons. But many Gazans went to work in Israel, many went to university abroad, built decent lives. All undone because of Hamas, tragically.

Watch this tourism video by a Gazan from 2019. Does this look like a Warsaw Ghetto to you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBo7i-TXy6s

Yes times could be tough. But times are often tough all around the world. Ask the Sudanese or the Ethiopians. They've got average incomes multiple times lower than the Gazans did. They didn't launch genocidal wars or broadcast TV shows for children calling for beheading al-Yahud.

OK

Sure, I'm aware that I'm better informed on this than most people are who just rely on ambient vibes and prejudices. I'm not challenging that.

Neither the Gazans nor the Arabs of Palestinians have spent 70 years having their land and lives stolen. This sort of superficial analysis is commonplace in the West but bears no relation to the historical reality of the conditions under which the State of Israel came into existence.

The best account, drawing especially on the work of Benny Morris and more recent scholars, was given in a lecture by political analyst Haviv Rettig Gur here.

An 'ethnostate' significantly more ethnically and religiously diverse than any country in Europe, the Middle East or Asia.

Japan is 99% ethnic Yamato Japanese. Is Japan an ethnostate? And should they be criticised for this?

73% of Israelis are Jews, more than half of which are Middle Eastern (Mizrahi) Jews, i.e. zero connection to Europe. The other 27% of Israeli citizens are usually Arabs who are either Muslim, Christian, Druze, Bedouin, Circassians, Baha’i, Armenians, Samaritans, etc. They have the same civil, legal, political and religious rights as Jewish Israelis. They’re represented at every level of government, including in the parliament with an explicitly Arabist political party that has once served in a coalition government.

And it’s… Israel that’s the ‘ethnostate’. Got it.

Accusing Jews of being unable to stop themselves from murdering children is unambiguous antisemitism with a long history dating back to the Middle Ages.

what do you mean by that?

I mean how the occupation can end. It's not obvious how that can happen, even though it obviously should. Go on Google Images, then search 'topography of Israel and the West Bank'. If a nascent civilian government of Palestine falls to Hamas or similar forces then they'd be overlooking Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. They'd have a throughline to Iran via Syria-Lebanon. That's not a risk Israel can take.

Hamas has little to no influence there

This simply isn't correct. Hamas operates in much of the West Bank, as do allied groups like the Jenin Brigades and Lion's Den in Nablus. They're also enormously popular among West Bank Palestinians.

it is governed by a civilian government that was democratically elected

So democratic that the current President Abbas is currently serving the 19th year of his 4-year term.

In fact, they’ve been trying to hold new elections, something that Israel has been blocking for years now

This is misleading at best. They're not trying to hold new elections, because every single opinion poll for about 15 years now show that Fatah would lose badly and certainly Hamas would become the new government of the West Bank, which would finally shatter the possibility of there ever being a Palestinian state. That doesn't serve Fatah or Israel. Israel therefore keeps Fatah on life-support as the least-bad option.

There is little to no violence coming from the West Bank.

Because it's been suppressed by Fatah in co-operation with Israeli security services who've been operating in the West Bank before and after October 7th.

By the way, right at this moment thousands of Palestinians in the West Bank are out marching in support of Hamas and against the killing of Ismail Hainyeh: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/dismay-in-gaza-and-rare-open-support-for-hamas-in-west-bank-after-haniyeh-killing/