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[-] pjwestin@lemmy.world 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Funny that so many centrists have a strategy that boils down down to, "ignore leftists and then complain when they don't vote for us."

[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world -1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Sorry, here I thought self-proclaimed leftists might have some interest in preventing fascism, but as many leftists on here have repeatedly and joyfully assured me, they don't give a single solitary fuck about the oppressed or the working class if Their Guy(tm) isn't the one preventing fascism. Not unlike the Thalmann bootlicking that goes on on some corners about Lemmy about how right he was to hand the country over to Hitler, rather than risk cooperating with the dreaded SHITLIBS.

Red fascists have nothing to distinguish them but a coat of paint.

EDIT: They go on for a half-a-dozen comments or so denying that they're saying that leftists didn't turn out because they weren't enthused, and then go right back around and admit that leftists didn't turn out against fascism because they weren't enthused, but that's just life and we should deal with it.

Apparently, expecting antifascism out of leftists is above pjwestin's standards for us.

[-] pjwestin@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Cool story, bro. Do you think that the twelve million fewer people who voted for Harris were all Lemmy Marxist? Or maybe they were just people who didn't like her total lack of a working class message, endorsement of the Gaza genocide, or attempts to woo, "moderate," conservatives instead of her base.

The Democrats thought that they could ignore leftists and focus on moderates, gambling on the looming fascism being enough to get the left to show up anyway to bail them out. Turns out that was a bad fucking bet, and they created a huge enthusiasm gap that cost them the election. Maybe try blaming the party that spent $1.6 billion on this shit strategy than a handful of protest votes.

Edit: For the record, Pug's edit is a lie. Pug's argument is, "You're saying progressives let fascism win because they didn’t like Harris, and she wouldn't pander to them." To which I keep replying, "No, I'm saying campaigns don't have good turnout with groups they don't campaign for, and Harris chose to campaign for moderates, not progressives." To which Pug keeps replying, "So you agree with me!" Also, he calls me an apologist for fascist enablers a few times.

Obviously, we're not saying the same thing. His framing is an attempt to blame leftist groups for the Harris loss, while mine places the blame squarely on the decisions of the Harris campaign (since getting votes was literally their whole job). You're welcome to go through the thread and make up your own minds, but it's probably not worth your time to read the whole thing. It certainly wasn't worth mine to write it.

[-] leadore@lemmy.world -1 points 1 month ago

"12 million fewer people who voted for Harris"?!?

Um, no... Trump won by (vote counts as of today Dec 3) 2,424,153 votes. I don't know where you get the idea that Harris lost by 12 million! At first I thought maybe it was a typo but you've repeated that number in other posts. Don't just make shit up if you want your arguments to be taken seriously.

https://www.reuters.com/graphics/USA-ELECTION/RESULTS/zjpqnemxwvx/president/

[-] pjwestin@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago
[-] leadore@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

OK, so if you are comparing those numbers, the answer is 81.2m for Biden in 2020 - 74.7m for Harris in 2024, which is 6.5 million votes fewer, not 12 million.

You were citing only her votes counted in the first 24 hours or so compared to Biden's total after all votes counted.

[-] pjwestin@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

Oh, well, that's completely different then. Did she win?

[-] leadore@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

If you looked at the argument they're having, it's about how much of a difference leftists made in the election by refusing to vote for her, so the number is relevant for the points they were making. OTOH my point was that, it doesn't matter how many votes each candidate got in 2020 compared to 2024. What mattered was how many votes each one got in 2024, where the difference was 2.4 million (1.6%).

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[-] Rekorse@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 month ago

You know people can just read the comments themselves right. Dont need your edit biasing things.

Have you considered that the vote between democrats and republicans is really about whether we will abuse foreigners for our wealth or abuse our own people? Which one is the noble one to vote for again? The one that won't harm you right?

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

Noble?

Why are you making this about what's noble?

And are you really suggesting that, if given the choice between their own survival and the survival of people on the other side of the planet, rational voters should pick the latter?

[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

And are you really suggesting that, if given the choice between their own survival and the survival of people on the other side of the planet, rational voters should pick the latter?

Of course not.

They're suggesting that between the choices of

  • Americans minorities not being killed + the death of people on the other side of the planet

  • American minorities being killed + the death of people on the other side of the planet

The only noble thing to do is ensure that the second choice is chosen. As many innocent people, and especially minorities, should die as possible - that's the only moral choice, after all!

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

No, they really are picking the latter. They just responded to me. They think self-preservation is not the rational choice for someone to make.

[-] Rekorse@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 month ago

Yes, you are responsible for your own nation at least. Shouldnt be messing with other countries people to begin with. Ideally America would stop being so fucking greedy altogether.

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

Jumping in front of the trolley does not solve the trolley problem.

[-] commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 month ago

it does, actually.

[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world -1 points 1 month ago

Have you considered that the vote between democrats and republicans is really about whether we will abuse foreigners for our wealth or abuse our own people? Which one is the noble one to vote for again? The one that won’t harm you right?

Funny enough, I predicted that the point du jour would change from "Genocide is bad!" to "It's only fair that Americans get genocided too"

[-] Rekorse@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 month ago

My point is America currently and historically does not care about people, it cares about money and power. Where you take it from is the choice.

If the democrats won we would still be an awful country just in a slightly different way.

[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago

My point is America currently and historically does not care about people, it cares about money and power. Where you take it from is the choice.

Not really, since Republicans are still killing people overseas. But you don't care about that - you just want as many minorities to be killed as possible.

[-] Rekorse@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 month ago

Maybe, they did claim they would back out of all that stuff. Probably not true because noone gives away power, but the democrats weren't going to either.

[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago

Maybe, they did claim they would back out of all that stuff. Probably

What stuff did they say they were going to back out of? The genocide they explicitly said they want to intensify?

this post was submitted on 03 Dec 2024
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