995
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 16 Aug 2023
995 points (97.3% liked)
Linus Tech Tips
3526 readers
2 users here now
~~⚠️ De-clickbait-ify the youtube titles or your post will be removed!~~
~~Floatplane titles are perfectly fine.~~
~~LTT/LMG community. Brought to you by ******... Actually, no, not this time. This time it's brought to you by Lemmy, the open communities and free and open source software!~~
~~If you post videos from Youtube/LTT, please please un-clickbait the titles. (You can use the title from https://nitter.net/LTTtranslator/ but it doesn't seem to have been updated in quite some while...)~~
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
It is HIGHLY silly to even imply these woes are from a, "learn-on-the-job" crew/etc.
Many of the allegations are about basic factual information being wrong and a terrible work environment.
Those DO NOT naturally show up in any ol' little work environment. They show up when there's a lack of professionalism and basic respect for fellow humans.
That culture comes from a lack of process and experience of large organizations. The second that a team grows beyond 7 people it has grown beyond the direct control of any one person and the culture takes on a life of it's own. If not addressed early in growth, issues typically spiral and are either not caught or are allowed to exist out of a perceived necessity.
Small organizations are nimble so they do not need to formalize cultural and HR processes in the same way that large organizations do. If the leader sees something they don't like, they address it. It isn't just about basic respect. We all bring our own cultural issues to an organization. A lack of professionalism comes hand in hand with smaller creative organizations. That's what makes them entertaining. It also enables the toxic tendencies of some people as they are allowed to slip in and as the pressure builds. Don't confuse professionalism with respect.
These things don't happen immediately either. It happens over time as people get tired and impatient so they are not on their best behavior. We all go through a storming process. That's when toxic culture can set in if good lower level leadership doesn't catch and address it. That takes training and a formal approach to organizational structure, not just production processes.
I am one of those outside consultants.
Toxic environments can also be brought in by toxic leadership. Like a VP that intentionally pissed workers off because "they work harder"
My sister once worked for a guy who's management strategy was "Employees should be so unhappy that they are close to quitting but just content enough to not quit."
He thought, that way he'd get the most value out of the employees.
Needless to say, his business wasn't going well because all employees were pissed all the time and that's not a good thing when they all have to work with customers. Also, the turnover was really high. But the boss didn't really notice.
Absolutely! The training I bring up is for the leadership at all levels. The fun challenge as a consultant is to make changes to the people who are paying you without being fired. It can be frustrating but also really rewarding when it works out.
I need to learn how you do it... I'm not in a position or authority to bring in people of your expertise to my leadership, so trying to make changes in my org without getting fired..
Honestly, you fail a lot before you learn where the line is. You frame the training as industry best practice with a certification that they can sell. You frame them going to the training as leading the organization through it and from the front. You then let them learn and put their own spin on it during the instruction.
The real trick is getting them to think it was their idea. Start with a quantified problem statement. Your recommendations to address the problem should come with multiple courses of action that they can choose from. It helps if these COAs are framed as beneficial to the organization outside of addressing the issue. As long as they accept that the problem exists, they should address it. If your preferred COA has other organizational benefits, they'll pick it and align behind their decision with resources.
Go look up some industry certifications and congrats, you can now be a (lower level) consultant. Congrats
Post saved. Thank you
Well said. I'm not sure I believe this former employee either. I read the "reasons they left," and it's simply too unbelievable. It sounds like more of a personal cry for help than a legitimate accusation. The more I read, the more buzzwords for media I saw. And every community is reacting as those buzzwords intend.
Statements from actual victims often do. That's part of the problem with the culture of not believing, or even alienating, victims. I'm not saying it should be treated as evidence against the company, but the company absolutely should make sure this believe is not happening internally and those of us on the outside should be charitable towards this former employee's testimony unless contradictory evidence shows up.
Using the Depp/Heard thing as a point of reference. There were good reasons to suspect her claims were fabricated or exaggerated, but I've also known people who have gone through many of the relationship experiences she testified about. Until she had her day in court and showed the world her (probable) dishonesty, even she deserved the benefit of charity. Or else by sheer misfortune we will start telling real victims they made it up.
Yeah. It just seems far too fabricated. For someone who is willing to share their life on social media, it seems very strange that they wouldn't have told a single person they know about it. Then, all of a sudden, other accusations arise and - oh yeah, look at all the things that happened to me! Too many things to never have been mentioned.
You understand that people who are victims of abuse, especially sexual abuse, are often afraid to come out, to tell anyone? What you are calling evidence of being fabricated is a symptom of abuse, and people who are trained to understand and report on those types of abuse are also trained to do so from victims who will go so far as to deny it had ever happened.
For your own benefit, please read this National Domestic Violence Hotline article on exactly why people's loved ones never share that they have had situations worse than Reeve alleged. Yes, it's about domestic abuse and not workplace abuse, but it is the same type of trauma and helplessness.
All of this just solidifies, in my mind and those who can think critically outside of a herd mentality, that this is fabrication. The accusations made didn't happen in a family behind closed doors, they happened out in the open. Do we think that the LTT facilities don't have cameras covering every square inch? Get with it. They record everything, I'm sure. This person didn't go to the police because there probably isn't anything to go to the police about.
Unless we're all to believe that everything that happened was in the one place where cameras never went, every single time? That none of it occurred on any kind of technology that would or could be audited, right?
Use your brain brochacho. These are the fabrications of someone who is mentally unstable. Not of a victim. Unless... a victim of their own mind.
Wow. You're giving off some heavy misogyny vibes right now accusing me of having a herd mentality for pointing out actual symptoms of actual problems. We're not even talking about the LTT accusation anymore, but about specific behaviors you used to decide that she was probably lying. That is the shit that makes people afraid to tell anyone when they are abused.
I've worked at some big paranoid companies, cameras everywhere (full lockdown, fwiw), that have dealt with abuse issues. My own boss was stuck in a toxic environment regarding another coworker for MONTHS before she got the courage to speak up and deal with it. Guess what. The cameras don't do much when a large part of the abuse is verbal and the abusive moments are just that - moments.
Thing that made me feel like shit? I witnessed some of it, and took it as consenxual because she wasn't saying anything about it. I was young, dumb, and raised to have the same mindset you're showing me right now.
Not sure. I'm using Reid's Principle of Credulity at this point and time. Should evidence come out she is lying, I will stop giving her the benefit of a respectful response. The presence of cameras at LTT's office is not that. People are abused in front of, or around, cameras all the bloody time.
I'm going to give this to you straight. I've heard someone say basically the same thing with the same attitude about a domestic abuser. Then the "lying" victim was hospitalized. If you had lived that life experience, would you act that way?
As a side note, I'm in the tech world for a career. Predominantly male. Perhaps predominately white, though I can't speak to those statistics - the environment is more diverse every day. That said, I met a friend back in 2015. She's smart, eloquent, and overall extremely talented. I've seen her get passed over for promotions; I've seen clients engage her unfairly, by making statements like, "are you getting the engineer?" Because they were expecting a man. Anyway, a lot of us in our inner circle suspected her boyfriend of physically harming her. For years. But there was never any concrete evidence. After 8 or 9 years of friendship for me, perhaps 12 or 13 for others in our circle, she cut off all contact with us. She sent a message saying, "I can't talk to any of you, it's not right. You are all married and I'm engaged." She never spoke to us again. This was about 6 months ago.
Said circle, also, is not all male. 3 males, 2 or 3 female, plus spouses. One trans man and his wife. Pretty diverse in all aspects.
So anyway, 2 months ago she up and quits her job. Straight up leaves. No exit interview, no reason, nothing.
I am about 99.99% sure that she's in some kind of mentally abusive relationship. Her boyfriend had control over her when she was at work with us. We gave her opportunities to tell us. She chose her path.
It saddens me often when I think about it. But it doesn't affect my opinion on this LTT story....
Bottom line, beyond any contestation - the right thing to do would have been to report it to the the correct authorities; not us.
That they didn't, alone, is enough to completely discredit the entire story. To claim ignorance, in 2023, of what should have been done is just bullshit.
What happens, then, when the storm blows over and this is all proven to be false? Are ya'll gonna come back here and admit you were wrong? Going to start following LTT again? Nah, the herd has left and moved on. Ya'll will pretend to be enthused by the delivery of the dude at Gamer's Nexus, despite his content being less thrilling than simply reading the spec sheet. (Just saying, his delivery is terrible, though I respect the channel.)
If it comes out that this was all a lie, it might just be too late.
You actually think that's easy? And how do you know she didn't, and that they didn't just say the same shit you did? There's a LOT of documentation of authorities in some areas (and Az is one of those) not taking those types of complaints seriously enough, especially when made against a person of power. There's literally been a huge outcry about it.
But more importantly, that's why most people who finally admit to being abused don't do so to the authorities. They do so to friends, or yes, a public forum. You're telling me that IF this is true and IF this is actually her responding as many/most victims do, it's still her fault?
And if it actually happened and she finally got the courage to say it, why exactly should those who care enough to follow her NOT be made aware of it?
With that attitude, it WILL be proven to be false regardless of the facts.
Wrong to give the potential victim the benefit of credulity? FUCK no. I hope she's lying because it means she wasn't abused, but I'm not going to add to the abuse by denying her life experience. I'm not saying we should globally cancel LTT. I'm saying we shouldn't cancel HER, like you seem to be doing.
You really have more sympathy for a corporate machine with their ability to hire professional troubleshooters for bad press, than a person who might have been highly abused by that corporate machine? Well there's the disconnect.
Let me make this clear. If LTT is destroyed by her coming out, that's on **their ** failure to be a business that can prove itself safe for workers. Note the word "prove". If they did everything right, they would have mountains of structure and evidence to support that they are a safe environment, not people coming out of every little crack recounting consistent stories about them. If they do everything right moving forward, they change this from being a toxicity issue to an HR issue and whether or not you believe it actually happened they make sure it can't ever happen again.
This tells me everything I need to know about you.
No matter what I say, you'll never contest a single point; and we will never have any middle ground. So engaging with you will be a waste of time.
Her entire story rings very true for my experience at a tech startup that grew from 50 employees to 500 in 3 years. It was 100% believable for me.
Me too, though I'm not female. I've seen some of my female friends treated poorly - by clients, though, never my org. I just don't think it happened to this person. The fact that, well, they'll share the whole story to the world right now - but never told anyone else while it was occurring? Seems sketch. Doesn't jive.
That whole notion of, "I was embarrassed and couldn't tell anyone" to suddenly pronouncing accusations to the whole world over social media; as opposed to the legal authorities... seems damned sketchy to me.
lol what? This just sounds like ignorance to me.
It’s hard for individuals to speak up by themselves, yet we all assume we would in the same situation. This seems like a simple “Gamers Nexus says something and noted complaints by some workers of a bad environment, so now I feel I can say it without more harassment”
Did we all forgot a kid killed himself from the harassment LMG fanboys brought on them?
Look, Madison probably talked to someone about it while it was occurring, but we're not part of her personal support group. We don't have that privilege and that's ok
But we're privy to the rest of the rant? HR or the local authorities should have been the first step. Not waiting [duration] and then shitposting.
Weak.
You'd be surprised how many women don't come forward with harassment, sexual harassment, even sexual assault cases. We often think, unfortunately, that the system is not on our side. It's not weakness, more like mistrust and fear of being re-victimised.
I honestly think that it doesn't matter what we think. Perception is reality for inside the organization and outside. Let the external investigation take place. Implement policies moving forward to protect the employees, leadership, and organizational perception.
It absolutely matters. The employee chose to take accusations public, rather than following appropriate channels of either the corporate HR or legal authorities. I don't know how it works up there in Canada, but these accusations get taken seriously in the U.S.
corp HR is not your friend, especially in a toxic workplace. HR or the lack thereof is what enables a toxic workplace.
if you can't understand a victim just want it to blow over and never have to think about it again. then you're either severely lacking in imagination, or empathy, or both.
So I guess Madison just isn't a strong person then.
I've seen the exact same thing on a company that went from 5 to 50 employees in a similarly short time frame.
The issue happens if you start with a friend group without decent structures or leadership "because we are friends/anyway". This works if you got 5 people but it doesn't if you have 50 or 150. Because you don't just have friends who are enthusiastic about the mission there, but you have to fill the ranks with people who actually want to treat this like a job. Now the "bro" culture starts to fall apart.
With this size you start to get real issues at work that need to be handled with a correct structure, which you don't have because senior management still feels this is just a startup full of bros.
Bros don't mind working 60 or even 80h/week, every week, because of the mission. Employees do mind. So now you have a workload designed for 60h/week per employee that is shouldered by a 40h/week employee. So either they work 60h (probably without compensation for the overtime) or they cut corners and deliver crap quality.
Same with the way people interact with each other. Bros don't mind some rough jokes, but employees usually don't like it that much if their real concerns get brushed aside with the suggestion to maybe "calm your tits".
When going from startup to real company, you need to make big changes to the structure and work culture. If you don't, an LMG ensues.
I'm still not a fan of speaking as if these are small business problems. They ARE NOT "small business" problems. It is a problem of failed management, full stop, regardless of how common or explanable it is.
Yea, startups and groups of "bros" are highly likely to mess things up in this way, but again... It's a basic lack of professionalism and respect for others. That shouldn't be accepted as "bro culture". It's being an immature twat.
Also, and this is key, Linus comes from the boom PC hardware market of the late 90s and early to mid 2000s. He learned at the feet of amoral cowboys in an industry that was peaking right before critical mass. He has only seen bad behaviour rewarded and bad actors escaping consequences. And he grew a brand based on being an irresponsible kid who would say literally anything to get views. As authentic as he may seem remember what he learned and how he learned and most importantly who from. His CEO is one of those amoral cowboys.
Precisely! I've seen many startups in Berlin that had to fold because they didn't realise soon enough that they can't run a company the same way as organising a group of friends. That, and that products have to make a profit sooner rather than later...
This reminds me of sexual misconduct allegations in the electronic music scene. When EDM blew up it elevated a bunch of basement dwelling computer nerds to rock star status. Musicians like Datsik and Bassnectar let that status go to their heads and immediately abused it.
At least if it's popularity based like with an artist, people are directly supporting them.
It always blows my mind when f*cking business dipsh*ts start acting like rock stars. Yea, money's attractive to some, but nothing like musical talent! Those f*cking goobers.
Of course, there are many "learn-on-the-job" organizations that have gone forward and done amazing things.
However, while I agree that these issues don't naturally manifest themselves and stem from unprofessionalism and basic respect, I would argue that specialists and professionals in those functions (HR, Finance, Ops, etc) can help establish policies that mitigates and discourages such behaviors. If people can't do that voluntarily, then policies and consequences are enacted to enforce it.
This is why many companies (and I've worked in a few in the tens/hundred thousands of employees) have clear business conduct guideline policies and enforcement, because people who lack professionalism and basic respect for fellow humans are actually quite prevalent in any and every company. I've witnessed a few myself that led to immediate termination of my colleagues.
Oh I agree in that all those things help. I just want to push back against the idea that this is expected in a small business. It should not be.
This only happens when unqualified people become the boss of too many others. Regardless of the sequence of events, unqualified people are in charge of far, far too many businesses.
If I implied that this was expected in a small business, I apologize as that wasn't my intended message. I was referring to the current maturity of LMG. LMG is worth $100M, with 100+ employees, putting it in the midsize business category.
And in that league and above, it is not just expected, but required. The stakes are just too high for an unstructured/informal approach to running the business, which is what LMG is learning/about to learn, hopefully.
The sad thing is that many orgs go through these exact transitional problems, the only difference is that LMG is under the scrutinizing lens of the internet.