158
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 17 Aug 2023
158 points (100.0% liked)
LGBTQ+
6186 readers
1 users here now
All forms of queer news and culture. Nonsectarian and non-exclusionary.
See also this community's sister subs Feminism, Neurodivergence, Disability, and POC
Beehaw currently maintains an LGBTQ+ resource wiki, which is up to date as of July 10, 2023.
This community's icon was made by Aaron Schneider, under the CC-BY-NC-SA 4.0 license.
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
It is obvious that men, with they physically stronger bodies and larger frames, are better than women at chess. It would be unfair to them to compete with eachother, since the male brain is the bigger muscle. /s
In all seriousness, I see absolutely no point in gender divisions in chess of all things.
The gender division is because women on average are worse than men at chess and likely to be eliminated in a tournament early on if they manage to qualify at all.
This is because chess is a boys club where men and boys get better training and have an easier time advancing and practicing then women.
The best way to get better at chess however are tournaments, where you can play your equal under a stressful and emotional context. Since women can't advance as well as men because of discrimination, they wouldnt be able to play tournaments making it even more difficult to advance their game.
The women's league are created so that women can play in tournaments, get practice, get better and be able to play in the big boy tournaments as well as a creating an environment where sexual harrasment, which is also a problem at the main tournaments, is mitigated.
Edit TL;DR women's league are there because women chess players typically get sidelined. Its basically affirmative action.
So a protected category for women only, because of social factors rather than inherent physical differences.
This makes some sense to me based on my own experiences in other areas like mathematics and science competitions. The boys in my school who knew me were mostly alright but it was still a very strange environment to be a teenage girl in. I was always keenly aware of being an outsider. And it was so much worse in rooms full of strangers at competitions. Intimidating and overwhelming.
For all that I was consistently at or near the top in our school, I always fell at the outside competitions. Felt horrible too, that I was letting everyone down. I was too young to understand the sexism at play so I just beat myself up about it and stopped participating.
In general, I support protected categories for women. We haven't come anywhere near far enough in reducing sexism to make them unnecessary. I don't know if it's a big enough issue with trans women in competitive chess to make this sort of ruling. It might have the balance wrong. But it would be good if there was more understanding of what these kinds of environments can be like for cis girls and women.
Right, so the transphobic fear the FIDE has is that men might try to exploit a loophole by "posing" as trans. So they have these severe restrictions on who might be considered transitioned, why they will "alert" tournaments that someone is trans, why they require legal proof of transitioning before giving in and why they're stripping trans men of their titles (so that if a cis man manages circumvent all these protection by successfully posing as a trans woman and having won all these titles transitions back, he no longer has them).
It's the same trans-panic as in so many other sport federations. Severe legislation hurting trans people trying to pre-empt a completely made up cheating scenario.
edit: (hopefully) clarified the wording
Uuh... What are you saying? A trans man posing as a trans woman? What.
If you mean a cis man posing as a trans woman and then "detransitioning", what do trans men have to do with it?
Sorry that got confusing, I'm referring to this section:
I think the scenario they are trying to prevent here is a cis man posing as a trans woman getting access to the easier womens titles, gaining titles like Womens Grandmaster, and then "detransitioning". Now they are in possession of a Grandmaster title they wouldn't have gotten otherwise. It's not the Grandmaster title but still. So to prevent that they're now a FIDE master.
The solution to this completely made up problem ends up of course stripping trans men of their "Womens ..." title to a lower title.
If trans mens' titles are converted to general titles of equal level (which the policy does allow for - it does say "same or lower level"), it would actually be a really good policy, as it would prevent trans men being outed by having "Womens..." titles. But given the rest of the changes are blatantly transphobic, it doesn't seem that respecting the privacy of trans men was the goal.
Yes the policy "allows" for that, but the decision solely lies with FIDE. And the examples they give are of deranking. What they mean by that is not Changing Womens Grandmaster into a general Grandmaster. The requirements for a GM are higher. You need 2500 ELO and perform three "norms" of 2600 performance rating. Essentially have high ELO and show against other GMs your skill. For a WGM you need an ELO of 2300 and three "norms" of 2400 performance rating.
Since a WGM doesn't meet the GM requirements (otherwise they would be a GM) they can't get that title. But now they're stripped of their WGM title as well and placed in rank of FIDE master, which requires "only" an ELO of 2300, and no norms. As such it is lower than WGM.
A player at that level is already well connected and known in the community. They wouldn't be able to keep their transition secret, what with the rumour mill going around. Plus the decision of whether they want to "derank", giving up their earned title for a lower but more gender-affirming one, should ultimately lie with the person and not with the body that already bestowed that title on them.
It seems like the issue is that the Womens and Open titles aren't directly equivalent in terms of their requirements, then? Since it would be unfair to give a higher title when the person hasn't earned it, and there's no title with the same requirements, then the nearest equivalent title would seem the only option.
I also suspect that the likelihood of someone being trans and having an extremely high title is quite low, and for the majority of trans chess players, the transfer would be between lower ranked titles, and when they are not as well-known, which means it would be both more viable and more important for their privacy to be respected. That said, I do agree with you that it should be down to the trans person to choose what they want to happen with the titles they've earned. I just thought it was worth pointing out that transferring trans men's Womens titles to the nearest equivalent Open title is a good policy, even if it was implemented unintentionally.
Did you not read what I wrote? Was this reply meant for someone else?
Yeah I thought you were the person I had initially replied to, and was expanding on my initial thought trying to clarify that while having a womens category is not discrimination, this regulation is discriminatory.
That makes sense, but... isn't the "International Chess Federation", the actual big boy tournament?
No it's the federation which hosts many tournaments amongst them the "big boy tournament", the World Chess Championship, and parallel to that the Womens World Chess Championship.
Of course they are, the pieces are super manly in the men's games. Made of concrete for extra ruggedness and painted manly colors, nothing bright or cheerful as far as the eye could see. And the chairs they sit in are also super manly no comfort at all. All played on a manly tactical chessboard. /S
Seriously though this whole decision just screams "cruelty is the point" and no concept of equality.
I'm especially fascinated by the gendered difference in whether you get to keep your titles. So transitioning one way means you keep your chess muscles? But not the other? Transness itself isn't the problem then?? I'd love to hear them attempt to justify that rule.
They seem to be applying the correct gender retroactively, with a key difference being that there's a women's protected category and an open category. Women, cis or trans, can play in the open category so change in gender status for someone who competed as if they were a man (and thus necessarily in the open category) is irrelevant to the titles.
At present I'm inclined to disagree with this apparent retroactive application so I'm not defending this, just explaining my understanding of their thinking. It's about open and protected categories. If it was men's only and women's only, it would be different.
One point in defence of retroactively changing titles for trans men: the documentation specifies that women's titles can be transferred to an open title of the same or lower level, which effectively protects trans men's privacy by not leaving them with women's titles that would otherwise out them. I'm not sure it was intentional, or just a side effect, but it's actually a good policy for trans men.
Thanks, that makes sense. (I'm not agreeing with them either).
Ah. Thanks for explaining. In their twisted world that sort of makes sense.
Me too. I can't figure out the bigoted "logic" here at all.
Yeah. I was reminded of the sports "debate" as well. Chess is one of the sports where you wonder why they have a gender division in the first place. Are they afraid of loosing to trans people or women (cis and trans)?
The women's division exists because when the world of chess begrudgingly started to accept women at all, the massive amount of sexism discouraged women from actually playing and competing. So the other division exists to allow them to be acknowledged as players and be able to participate with a (reduced) amount of sexism driving women away.
So same reason there are colleges for women and black folks, they were established because they were either excluded or driven out of existing institutions.
There is only a womens-only league. The other leagues are open to everyone.