I'm gonna get real with you folks, we've had way too many of these posts recently. I've been reflecting on this topic a lot the past few days. For me personally, I couldn't care less about my gender identity. But just because that's true for me, doesn't make that true for everyone.
The beauty of the fediverse is that if you don't like the way a particular instance or community is moderated you can simply choose another to hang out on, or create your own.
Blajah has made it pretty clear by now they will ban anyone who argues against the validity of xenogenders, in order to create a safe space for those folks. That's fair enough imo.
Safe spaces should be respected, and Blajah's admins/mods do not deserve abuse for creating and maintaining those spaces.
I can completely understand why Blajah users don't want to have to constantly argue with external users about the validity of their chosen identities. Bans are one way Blajah has decided to manage that problem so that their users can experience lemmy in relative peace and safety. While it is a blunt tool and I have my reservations about preemptive bans, there are not many other options for @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone, other than defederation from most instances. That would be a terrible outcome for the fediverse as a whole.
In order to help Blajah to maintain their safe space, I would like to propose, if @db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com agrees and community sentiment is positive:
- that we no longer accept posts about this topic in this community; and ~~- we also remove previous posts on this topic from the community.~~
That's all folks, have at 'er.
Edit: thanks for all your feedback and comments. I think it's clear that the vast majority of people are fed up with this topic coming up repeatedly.
Summarizing the feedback, I'd say most folks would prefer to retain previous posts for the sake of posterity, and to serve as an example of why we don't want anymore of these posts. I'm happy to take that on board. For those folks saying I'm a PTB for intervening in this way, I'll just remind you that I haven't made any arbitrary mod decisions, and I've consulted with db0 and the community as a whole before taking any mod actions.
I think the way to move forward with this is to acknowledge that there's a bunch of queer and straight people who have a problem with xenogenders. Personally, I think that's a valid perspective and shouldn't sanctioned on our instance. But for Blajah, they've drawn a line in the sand over this and that's ok too. Our instance won't be blocking anyone over their opinions on the topic, especially in this community where free discussion is necessary and encouraged. But safe spaces should be respected.
A lot of folks mentioned I should more more specific about the "no more posts about Blajah's mod policies" rather than making it a sweeping and overly broad statement. I think that's good feedback. I will amend this to "No more posts in this community about the validity or otherwise of neopronouns, xenogenders, and bans originating from Blajah about gatekeeping or transphobia. This is in recognition of Blajah's safe space policy. You are of course free to discuss those topics outside of this community.
Note that this decision isn't about ideological gatekeeping, its about reducing the workload for our own mods and admins in trying to moderate this community, and to avoid iterating over the same old topics again and again.
Blajah isn't getting a "free pass" over YPTB posts - if you feel they are power tripping over other issues then feel free to make a post here. But if it's a post questioning the validity of xenogenders or about Blajah bans for gatekeeping then that will no longer be allowed here. Those folks deserve a safe space on Lemmy, even if it's not a mainstream opinion.
For those folks who feel aggrieved about being accused of "transphobia" or "gatekeeping" over their views on this topic, I completely understand just how hurtful it can be to be unfairly (imo) accused in this way. I've been in the same position, and I also found it difficult to deal with. I want those folks to know that our instance does not require you to support xenogenders in order to participate in our instance. However we do require that you use preferred pronouns whenever they are specified. That's been a longstanding instance policy on dbzer0.
Thank everyone for your feedback.
I think people should be allowed to complain about any mod, on any community, on any instance.
Otherwise, it shows a pretty clear favoritism.
I don't come here for fruitless arguments regarding lemmy.ml or blahaj.zone moderation, but that is the cost of open discussion. If people want to fight each other, who are we to prevent them?
That's just it, though. The blahaj people don't want to fight about this, that's literally the entire point of the rule. This is about other people coming into their spaces, starting fights, getting banned for rules that are very clear and then pitching a shit fit about it.
I don't complain when I get booted from lemmy.ml communities for breaking a clear rule because I went to their place and fucked around. It would literally be a waste of everyone's time for me to complain about.
The rule about pronouns is pretty cut and dried. You can either respect them, or you can not engage with the people who you think are trolling at all, which to be clear, is incredibly fucking easy to do. No one is forcing these people to make comments like that in those communities. That's a personal choice.
Once again, if you show up on blahaj and start fucking around with pretty clearly defined rules, only one side is fighting, the other side is just banning them for breaking clear rules. That's not a fight, that's enforcing the rules they've laid out.
Dbzero is not their space and they don’t get to police other people’s conceptions of them.
Blahaj admins started this whole ordeal in december for banning dissent and losing dozens of users instead of engaging with their community.
I thought the people saying neopronouns are trolling, when it was already against the rules, started the drama.
"Do not confront the people doing bad things" is a very shitty advice.
That's not the rule. The rule is don't misgender them.
If you can't use their pronouns or otherwise interact with them without invalidating their identity, then, you aren't to interact with them.
As I've said in other posts I'm happy to use gender neutral pronouns, particularly as a default option, but I'm not doing the neopronoun thing, that's just silly.
You don't get to arbitrarily decide how language works.
Fucking BINGO
Wait, you're arbitrarily deciding how language works.
The fact that neopronouns are new don't make them any *morez arbitrary than existing words.
Language evolves and shifts, even when there's a governing body of formal language like French has.
Ever heard the phrase "to coin a phrase"? It's literally a phrase that was coined about making up a new phrase being similar to making a new coin in a mint.
Brobdingnagian may be an obscure word, but it's in dictionaries. It was totally made up by people in response to the writings of Gulliver's Travels.
Ever get ghosted? Or butt dial someone? Or call someone on a telephone at all? Because the telephone was an invention, named arbitrarily. Someone decided to name the invention that, and it was arbitrary, based in root words from old languages, not even english. Then people just shrugged and went with it.
Mind you, I tend to not have the capacity for neopronouns that aren't fairly standardized. Once it's something uncommon, I'm too old to remember it without a lot of effort that I'm rarely going to make for a stranger. I'll just not talk to them rather than deal with it, but it's still my problem, not theirs.
But arguing that it isn't valid because it's arbitrary is just silly.
Nobody has ever demanded I say those things the way Blahaj does.
Malarkey.
Nobody is chasing people around trying to make them say things.
The only time they're demanding you use their pronouns is when you're talking to them. And if you aren't, then maybe the problem isn't their pronouns, since there's a lovely block function if you don't want to just walk away.
You know that's an option, right? To just walk away. It's even easy to do. Easier than trying to argue about how language works when you don't really understand it yourself. Easier than making a false claim.
Also, you are aware that blahaj is an instance, right? It doesn't have some monolithic spiritual entity that makes demands. It's not an individual person. So, trying to claim "blahaj" demanded anything is just silly.
Or about them, even outside of Blahaj.
Call the Dragon a "they", and you'll know about it. Doesn't matter where.
No, actually I use the pronouns they/them about dragon rider/fucker, and have never been banned.
I've explained why I use those instead of the individual pronoun requested, and have even discussed my ongoing internal debates about neopronouns on blahaj and have not been banned. I have never been attacked on blahaj or elsewhere for disagreeing with someone respectfully. I have had a few heated comments directed my way, and discussed those points, while still maintaining the stance I had at the time, without being banned or attacked.
Now, while that's not the same as being preemptively banned, or banned for things outside of blahaj, it indicates to me that it isn't so much holding a different opinion as it is how one expresses that opinion.
Seriously, in one of the many discussions on the subject I had on blahaj, where I expressed my previous opinion that neopronouns were a negative thing overall, and possibly detrimental to the cause of trans rights, the worst I got was "you don't get to decide who deserves the respect of their pronoun".
The key difference, and I think it vital that you understand it, is that my opinion was expressed with respect. I didn't call anyone silly. I didn't call anyone delusional, or crazy, or even a troll (though I did ask Dragon rider if they are a troll, and express that I suspected they may be, in a different conversation).
See, it doesn't matter if you think it's silly. It doesn't matter if I don't think it's silly (and some of the choices of xenopronouns are silly in that they're frothy and light and invoke playful imagery). All that matters is that we don't get to decide who is and isn't worthy of respect. We don't get to decide who is and isn't worthy of having their pronouns respected.
You ever run across discussions of jury trials? How they're flawed because you're relying on 12 people to catch the guilty?
There's a principle that it's better for 10 guilty to go free than one innocent be convicted.
Think about that principle for a second, and apply it to trolls.
It is better for a dozen trolls to have their pronouns respected than one genuine person to have theirs ignored.
And it really is better. It doesn't matter if it's silly or not. It's about basic human decency.
Now, the admins are currently going over the line more often than I think is acceptable. They're preemptively banning people that are only phrasing things badly, or are expressing the same thing I did, but badly, and are otherwise allies. I think they gotta be very careful doing that.
But I'm not the one having to protect a bunch of people that depend on me for their one place to be able to express their full self, even if the rest of the world thinks it's silly.
I know exactly how far I'm willing to go to protect my people irl. I'd gladly empty a magazine into some hate filled bastard to keep one trans kid from having some asshole spitting in their face. So, maybe, a few bans here and there is not a major problem in my mind. I'll acknowledge I'm a radical in this regard. My perception of the admin actions to protect their people may be skewed. But if that's the case, I'd still argue that if you're calling people silly for wanting the freedom to just be and be respected online in what is damn near the only space they have, maybe you're perceptions are skewed. Maybe your ideas are silly, not theirs.
Sounds like a Truman Show glass house, considering the federation.
Well, whatever, it's your playground.
Who was I interacting with, Ada? :)
happy to chip in. it was right here that you verbally invalidated someone’s identity and expressed clear intent to invalidate other identities in the future. edit i misunderstood and Pug wanted the most recent occurrence. see below for details and that occurence.
content warning
Was that what I was banned for? Because it seems to me that I was banned just the other day, not 2 months ago.
Thank you for also confirming that acknowledging reality is against your moral code.
ah! it was not clear you meant the most recent instance. still happy to chip in! i t was right here that you verbally invalidated someone’s identity and expressed clear intent to invalidate other identities in the future.
Are you capable of parsing this sentence? Because it seems like you can't. Or, more likely, won't, I suppose because you like making a fool of yourself.
what do you think you have to directly @ someone when talking about their identity for the rule to apply? that we can all just talk behind each other’s backs and as long as we never make direct contact it’s ok? XD silly goose
gonna end this conversation. the rhetorical work is done.
What the fuck do you think 'interact' means, exactly
I think there are far worse and far bigger things for folks to be worried about in real life than getting their fucking panties in a twist because trans people want to be left alone.
If you really think banning people for not being able to respect pronouns is a "bad thing" my dude you gotta get a fuckin grip on reality. Seriously touch some fucking grass and realize there's actual real life shit that's actually bad.
It’s not about pronouns. It’s that they lose their fucking minds over any kind of pushback at all. They/them/their is gender neutral and does not negate someone’s gender. Neopronouns are a joke in the real world. Species dysphoria? Get fucking mental health help. You’re a human not a cat.
In the real world this kind of fantasy bullshit that blahaj promotes actively harms queer people.
And then in the context of current events - America is right now starting a genocide against us and this is what the community thinks is important? Fucking pronouns?!
Trans people are being genocided. They deserve a safe space to be themselves. You don't need to bring that Republican nonsense into their communities. Now isn't the time to be transphobic.
QUEER people are being genocided. I am a queer person. Fuck off.
Equating not taking fantasy nonsense seriously and being actively against it because it is transphobic trolling with the very real existence of trans people and then equating it to “republican” and “tRaNsPhObIc” is fucking rich.
THEY are tRaNsPhObIc. Fantasy identities and neopronouns are not real and are actively harmful to the very real queer community.
Mmmmm, nah. They're not hurting you, but you're hurting them. Just ignore them.
They’re the source of right wing conspiracy theories about litter boxes in classrooms and “I’m an attack helicopter!”
They absolutely are hurting us. And they deserve pushback.
But the helicopter pasta was written by a transphobe. The litter boxes never existed. Conservatives just made that shit up. It doesn't matter if real people have those identities, transphobes are going to attack you anyway.
Do you think you can appease the fascists by excluding the people the fascists hate more than you?
How is it that we had a solid decade of real acceptance and then suddenly when these losers come onto the scene it’s a war against queer people? Fuck them and their apologists. They’re not queer, they’re mentally ill attention seeking trolls subverting the queer community for right wing purposes.
Otherkin showed up 100,000 years ago when modern homo sapiens developed. I seriously doubt you can isolate a single decade of queer acceptance so long ago.
You're just engaging in the time honoured trope of calling something new because you, personally, didn't know about it when you were young, and now you think learning about new kinds of people is scary. People said it about gay. They said it about bi. They said it about trans.
BECAUSE THEY'RE HUMANS WHETHER THEY LIKE IT OR NOT AND THEM INSISTING OTHERWISE IS JUST TROLLING QUEER PEOPLE!!!!
Edit. You know what. I identify as a bird. Let me jump off this roof and fly! Oh shit, I splat on the ground. Guess I’m not a bird and I’m just dead now.
This is so fucking ridiculous you must be a troll.
You're a very valid bird and I'm proud of you for having the courage to come out.
"Do not confront the people doing minor bad things, we should let those slide because there are worse things out there" is a slightly shitty advice too though.
Once again, if you think that's a bad thing: touch fucking grass dude.
I'm going to give you the benefit of a doubt and consider this last reply as not intentionally endorsing doing slightly bad things to people, because that would be bullying and we're not here to bully people, far as I know.
If you think an instance with barely 9000 users has some control over the world that a handful of them being shitty online (in your opinion) means that you "must confront the bad thing" you're off your rocker. Trans people are a sliver of the human community and they're a sliver of the Lemmy community. They have no real power except that of their own instance. Why is that a bad thing? Explain it to me, please. That's what I mean by "touch grass." You are ascribing ill intent to people who traditionally have no power in society simply because they finally have a place where they have instituted their own rules.
Do you confront cops for doing bad things? Because I think they actually have power in society maybe you should focus on groups like that instead of pissing away your time on tiny communities who mostly keep to themselves to begin with. Or do you only confront groups you know don't have power over you, like the trans community? Because you're too much of a pussy to confront a cop for doing bad things? Easier to pick a fight with someone small?
I didn't pick a fight with them, i sort of picked a fight with your comments. Because I consider them to be wrong, or otherwise not good. No need to drag everyone else around that.
This whole thing seems to me an inner conflict within the group that spilled out. It reached this place, which is a community where users decide whether they consider a mod's action as abuse.
And this post is a Meta asking users whether to ignore, lockdown or erase such topics coming from that specific group.
For all intents and purposes, I am posting as a user of this community in regards to whether we should ignore potential mod abuse selectively.
Which group this is about doesn't matter to me, whether bigger evils or lesser evils, they should not be ignored.
This community's objective is understanding and maintaining awareness of what is and what isn't mod abuse at its core. At least that's my opinion.
Whatever is decided is up to those who run this place. As is in every other instance. Until then however, your anger is quite misguided.
And we obviously have wildly differing ideas of what "mod abuse" is because one of us doesn't care about things like power disparities or whether or not a certain community has traditionally been marginalized. Power disparities matter when it comes to "abuse." This sounds like you're basically DARVOing me and Blahaj in general.
"Ah, but I am the calm rational realist, so it does not matter that we have dismissed the abuse of your community, your admin has committed the Cardinal Sin of Mod Abuse because they were trying to protect their marginalized community from abuse and taking a proactive approach to do so, thus they are the real abuser here. Let the Inquisition take its pound of flesh."
It's absurd.
"If a community has been traditionally marginalized, the community can do no wrong"
y i k e s
It certainly doesn't stop you from trying.
Holy fucking shit man, both of the recent Blahaj posts were done to users who were not posting in Blahaj. They were posting here, on dbzer0, and for that matter in this very comm.
This community is on lemmy.dbzer0.com
I'm talking about people containing their fights over moderation topics to this community, not going into another community and trying to start fights there.
They should be able to complain about any mod, any community, or any instance here
Well I did. And I want all of them.
Fruit salad for all!