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this post was submitted on 18 Aug 2023
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The rules in the Constitution are only relevant so far as they are within the ability of the government to provide. Outlawing slavery, the right to free speech, the right to vote, these can all be provided and protected by the government. The global climate can only be protected by ensuing that the rest of the world does not ruin the climate, in other words, the US would have to invade any country that endangers the climate for is citizens to ensure that right. This is why the Constitution does not provide he right to travel anywhere outside of US borders either.
The US has invaded several countries to ensure their citizens have the right to cheap oil, which is also not covered in the constitution.
And you've proven my point.
No. The complete opposite of your point.
It is not in the constitution, so it can't be done - your point.
I am saying that the US has done things outside the constitution and in breach of international law to directly and materially aid their citizens.
But this time it is different somehow...
Actually they're saying the opposite. It seems everyone else in this thread seems to misunderstand it the way you did, though. The actual issue is that there is no constitutional right because you cannot having this in the consititution because there's no guarantee the US would be able to follow up on the right granted to its citizens.
E.g., as you said before, there is no constitutional right to cheap oil, either. The US gov can try to provide that, but they cannot guarantee they can provide that, hence they cannot grant it as a consititutional right.
I would rephrase it further. This is about the balance of powers in the government. The argument isn't that we don't have this right, it's that it isn't a Constitutional right.
Our existing Constitutional rights are more or less straightforward - "No one can prevent you from peacefully speaking your mind," aside from exceptions like fraud and credible threats. The judicial branch, the court system, is responsible for stopping wrongdoers and overturning laws that violate those rights.
By contrast, the proposed right, "No one can prevent you from having a stable climate where you live," is completely unenforceable by the courts.
The scope is too different: it's unclear what actions and laws would be in violation of that right. Would you be infringing on your neighbor's right to a stable climate because you drove your car to work when you could have ridden a bike? Is your city infringing on your right to a stable climate if it uses incandescent light bulbs in government offices, or fails to mandate solar panels on every roof?
The point being there is no Constitutional right to a stable climate because there's not really a way to directly violate that right in a way that the courts can enforce. Instead, it needs to be a policy decision passed by legislation with specific rules and actions in mind. That's a power reserved for Congress and not the courts.
Right. I certainly hope the case succeeds, but cants see how it can be based n Constitutional grounds. Montana is an anomaly because their Constitution did explicitly protect the environment
It seems like you’d have better luck arguing the EPA isn’t doing a sufficient job, or something
By that logic, they cannot guarantee the freedom of speech either though. They can try very hard, and do their best to make amends for when it's breached, but many people have been silenced illegally by the US government. They can try, but they cannot promise this fact.
I don't see why one couldn't apply the same to climate.
The US government will not jail you for exercising free speech. That's what free speech is. The government can not censor free speech, and they do not. To protect your right to free speech, all the government needs to do is nothing.
They are supposed to, but it happens. There is a reason we have appeals courts stranger.
the point of those courts is to decide what is or is not free speech.
Go read original post, this is literally what I am saying.
you're just making conjecture about how the US denies people free speech.
I’m citing it happens, something you yourself have agreed with.
i never agreed that they jail people for exercising free speech. that's not how this works.
Are you claiming no appeals court had ever ruled someone was exercising free speech after a lower court jailed them? Lol
you're using the world jailed to mean arrested or charged, that's now what we are talking about. anyone can be put in jail for no reason for 24 hours. that doesn't mean much.
You can be sentenced and appeal from jail stranger. You don’t just sit free if you have an appeal. It’s extremely situational.
yes, that's the point of the system.
Which again, read the origional post stranger lol
really productive "the courts exist", great addition the conversation.
Says the person jumping in to agree aggressively
you're not contributing, you're acting like the courts make the entire thing invalid.
No, I am demonstrating that the argument doesn’t hold water on even first order inspection. And you seem to be upset that you don’t understand that.
Kindly stop wasting my time and go away.
This isn't a US issue. No one's Constitution can guarantee this.
I did not say that the US government does not provide protections beyond what the Constitution says, nor does any of the included things prove that it can not provide protections to freedom of expression, etc, inside of its own borders.
There is no difference between saying what the government must or or must not do. Both require legislative support to protect the rights. This is about the governments ability to execute that legislative support. You can be a copyright holder in the US, but if someone outside the US steals your copyright or IP, there is fuck all the government can do about it directly. The government can ensure you have free speech in it's jurisdiction, it can not ensure you have a liveable climate within its jurisdiction. That is why the Constitution does not protect that right. You cant go to Saudi Arabia to protest then have the US protect your free speech, that's not a thing.
No one said the US can take actions on foreign soil. That is the opposite of what was said.
Well, that depends on what we think about climate change. If we think the climat change will destroy the humanity then this seems to be justifiable.
Justifiable or not, it's still not something that is in the control of the government exclusively.
Fair point - government can try to provide it, but can't guarantee the result.
The US subsidizes the world's demand for military and protection as well as the world's healthcare. There's no excuse, we could have this world fully renewable if we had the will to do so.
this is irrelevant. this isn't about the US, this is about how the constitution works.