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this post was submitted on 15 Apr 2025
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In a vacuum like this using the best and worst (dumbest?) example from each party.
But both parties as a whole serve the interest of capital. Their methods might be different. Their indirect/direct use of violence might be different. But they serve the same people with the same interest. AOC and Bernie are even saying that now. They've been criticizing the democratic party at all of their events.
Can the liberals stop pretending we can vote our way out of facism and please fucking join us on the left. Fucking please.
Fascism is here. Due process is gone. First amendment is gone. If you're waiting to vote again you're no different than someone in Russia thinking they can vote Putin out of power.
Grab a pitchfork (metaphorically speaking) and get organized.
Join PSL or DSA or anyone in your area resisting ICE. Now. Do it now.
Edit: For every downvote please comment with a different organization resisting ICE and organizing locally. Because if it's just criticism of the groups that ARE resisting it's not helping. Give people an alternative. I would LOVE people just listing groups that are resisting ICE in your area or nationally. Because that's all I want.
They can't and won't. Thought terminating cliche to deflect from the idea that electoralism isn't good enough. We can't vote our way out of this, but the rich want us to think that way. Brainwashed masses think Trump will let himself out of office beyond a casket.
Weird how every time someone suggests doing something outside of filling bubbles on paper every 2/4 years, it's an evil act. But mass murder, prison-industrial complex, the normalized mass poverty of everyone is justified and accepted.
Ah yes, "Palestinian genocide is bad but Ukrainian genocide is good"
Yeah when ICE is taking away my neighbors I always make sure to vet my resistance groups to make sure they have my same exact view on a conflict between two oligarch controlled nations. /s
I don't agree with Anarchist groups politically. But I sure as hell will stand in solidarity with them against fascism. If you sit by looking for the "politically pure" form of resistance to fascism you will always sit on a "holier than thou" fence of Liberalism.
I don't agree with PSL or DSA on everything. But what I do agree with is resisting ICE and fascism.
Are you doing something? Because maybe just talk to someone from PSL or DSA and actually just get info from the actual organizer's. Not some sweaty dude on Twitter.
Just go talk to someone. But don't just lie about an entire organization of people in a reddit comment and feel ok with watching more and more people getting black bagged.
I don't care if it's PSL, DSA, or your local anarchist bike gang. Just find something you can help with and resist. Stop making excuses because some sweaty Trotskyist like to be edgy on your timeline. Go outside.
When we resist fascism we can talk about the different degrees of being a leftist. But holy fuck this is not the time to do nothing.
Thanks for proving the point that you don't give a shit about Ukrainian genocide.
God. The irony.
When we warned you that ICE was going to end up empowered by a Trump regime, what you lot said was "Liberals are too impure!"
Now you want infinite solidarity, when you were willing to offer none.
Thanks but no thanks, I'll resist with a group that isn't pro-genocide. Isn't that, after all, what you lot were so insistent on?
Unlike you lot, though, if it comes down to me having a choice only between one of your shithead pro-genocide groups or the fascists, I will bite the bullet and support you.
But don't expect me to come running to support putting bullets in the heads of Ukrainian civilians and kidnapping hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian children because "Ukraine's government is too right-wing, so it doesn't matter!" Unless utter pro-genocide imperialist-supporting minority-murdering cunts like the PSL are the only realistic game in town, you're getting 0 support from me.
What's the PSL doing, again, other than posturing?
No, apparently the time to do nothing was when preventing fascism was at its easiest. Now that fascism has been handed all levers of power, we must resist, in suitably non-specific ways.
This is the response of someone with a false comfort in thinking they'll come for you last. I said my peace.
If you're not doing anything on the ground to resist ICE then you should. That's my point.
I'm not gonna argue anything more than that. Name me an organization resisting ICE that you would advocate for. I'd love to list more names in the future. What organization can I list that doesn't get labeled as a "Tankie" of "Muslim Terrorist" organization from you?
Please. Please give me a group I can list for people like you to go outside?
Please give people reading this comment thread an alternative. Please. Because otherwise your criticism helps no one.
I don't care if it's PSL, DSA, or a Harley Davidson motorcycle gang. If you're not advocating FOR some form of resistance and only criticizing the ones that exist. You are supporting ICE in your inaction while asking others to be inactive as well.
lmao
Clearly you did, though. You preferred to argue that Ukrainian genocide doesn't matter because Ukraine is 'oligarch controlled'. Presumably Palestinian genocide doesn't matter since Hamas is also 'oligarch controlled'. You also said that the position of a resistance group on genocide doesn't matter - presumably this means you're willing to unite with Zionists against American fascism? Or is solidarity only mandatory when it's about ignoring the genocides you support?
I'm involved in local groups. They're a bunch of 'shitlibs' to you lot, no doubt, but considering your primary form of praxis is ensuring that fascists get elected wherever and whenever you can, I'm not sure that your opinions really count for much.
List the organizations please. People would benefit from that. That's all I'm trying to do in this comment thread. Im not gonna engage in your derailment and false comparisons.
Your criticism was of PSL. And my point is that people should go organize and actually learn from the people in these organizations. Your comment only serves to keep people from organizing. It doesn't give an alternative. Give an alternative.
Unless I wanted to dox my location, that'd be unwise. I can, however, recommend your local scawwy Dem clubs for resources, as well as your local ACLU chapter for how to get involved in ways that are meaningful, even if no one throws a molotov cocktail (or pretends that they will, eventually, someday). And maybe you'll meet up with folks you can make serious plans with in the process.
Or you can LARP and do nothing of substance to people who actually need your help in this trying time - legal, economic, and medical resources.
Yeah, that's what I thought. Your only conception of 'solidarity' is 'everyone agrees with me and no one dissents; otherwise, I'll support fascists', and 'Everything I say is objectively correct; I have no obligation to acknowledge anyone else's viewpoint'.
But hey, at least you can continue being utterly ineffective just like the past 70 years of leftists in this country. Maybe, if we ever emerge from this fascist hellscape, you can kneecap the next leftist candidate that's put forward for being insufficiently pure and murder a few million more minorities in the process. After all, they matter less than your need to feel pure, right?
Thanks. For giving some advice on how people get organized. Even if it had to come with a lot of condescending jabs at other people that organize. My entire point is trying to get people to go outside and do something.
No one's LARPing in real life man. We're doing stuff that materially helps people. Keep your criticism of sweaty Tankies on Twitter/Reddit to the online world. That's not how things work when you work with people face to face. And it's definitely not at all representative of PSL and DSA.
Good luck with your local organizing and stay safe from ICE.
This you?
When it comes to insisting that others need to 'go outside' or how only your preferred ideologies are involved in 'resisting' or in accusing others of genocide support, you lot are predictably pugnacious, but whenever any of your own rhetoric is turned around on you, you bawl and cry about how mean it is.
Hard disagree. I've met people who LARP in real life. They're not that different than they are online. That is to say, normal people who've taken a purist position with the same fanaticism that Christian evangelicals do, and with the same eager-yet-moribund eschatology.
Man, I avoid tankies in the real world. They're far fewer and it's much easier.
Unfortunately for you, most people left-of-center by US standards in the USA are going to be the dreaded libs, so if you're actually looking to build resistance to fascism, you may end up needing to work with them, or their orgs, or even exercise solidarity with their causes.
While I've not met actual members of PSL IRL, I have definitely met members of DSA, and they're a mixed bag for the reasons stated.
Damn you really just wanna beef online don't you. Good luck mate. I tried.
Sorry that I didn't care for your Ukrainian genocide apologia.
I really think you should learn to read because I literally never said anything about it.
This you?
Was this what you were responding to?
Alright. I feel bad now. You just actually don't understand how to read subtext and what is being implied through the use of sarcasm. Like that's literally what I meant by "learning to read" and you just proved my point. That sentence literally says nothing about my opinions on Ukraine and Russias conflict.
I feel like I'm having a conversation with a child at this point. I have to stop. But it's kind of funny now.
Ah, the classic "I was just joking bro" without any indication of a joke, or what the joke might actually be, other than that you really didn't mean it.
Uh huh. Clearly not dismissing Ukrainian genocide as "a conflict between two oligarch controlled nations" and saying, through sarcasm, that the position of a resistance group on genocide is meaningless, and that opposition to genocide is a matter of having the 'same exact view'. Obviously your statement meant nothing of substance, not unlike everything else you've said here.
Its not "a classic" when I literally tagged it with /s mate. I'm not reverting to "it's just a joke".
It was a tongue in cheek comment that pointed to how out of touch you are with reality. Which you're really not doing a good job of disproving.
You are the one jumping to conclusions on that. Not me. But it goes hand in hand with what I've been saying all along.
This whole time you have spent just trying to have an online beef. And you've gotten progressively more and more upset as I don't participate in the initial think you said about PSL and then assumed I held the same position you are already misinformed on.
You are trying to force me into a position I don't hold. I am in no way in favor of Russia invading Ukraine. And I have never met a single person in my years at PSL that has been. You're trying to argue against something that was never said and using a sarcastic comment you misinterpreted as your basis for it.
What are you even trying to say at this point? I feel like you've made up what MY positions are in your head already and now you're trying to defeat them.
I literally outlined the whole thing, which included the /s. The sarcasm is key to understanding the response. Your subsequent denial of the position clearly outlined by that sarcasm is the classic denial by claiming "it's just a joke".
No, you 'just' think that genocide isn't important if it's between two 'oligarch run' states, and that the position of an organization on genocide is unimportant when deciding whether or not to join it to oppose fascism.
I'm sure you have the same opinion about Palestinian genocide. /s
Do you see how you just keep accusing me of positions I don't hold? Thats not how conversations work mate. You don't misunderstand what someone said, hear their position clarified, and then keep pretending your misunderstanding is "the truth".
Like where do you hope this conversation goes? In your mind you're going to convince me that I support Russia when I don't?
You seem to have already concluded what I believe for me. You could have learned was my actual position was on the matter with more detail. But you've proven you're completely incapable of having that conversation in good faith.
You pretty openly characterized the Russo-Ukranian war as a conflict between 'oligarch-run' countries that shouldn't be regarded as morally important, don't really know why you're trying so hard to deny it.
Okay. Feel free to clarify how your quote means something other than what I've asserted. All you've done is say 'nuh-uh' to the obvious and apparent reading of the quote.
Giving this one last shot. Hope you read it in good faith.
I think you're taking my criticism of conflicts between oligarchs and coming to some conclusion not based in class conflict but in nation state conflict. You're trying to attribute it in a conflict between nations and no leftist will ever see wars outside of class dynamics. It's useless for us. This is not a win loss conflict. It is a loss loss conflict for the working class of each nation. But especially Ukraine.
I think it's why you likely confuse criticism of NATO with being a support of Russia. Something this entire conversation started with. Which is likely why you think PSL supports Russia. We don't.
I correctly see this conflict as two nation states using their working class to accomplish the goals of capital. One that is supported by the worlds largest military but struggling to keep it's support. And another that found aggressive action to be the best for its capitalist interests.
We acknowledge the aggressive party in this conflict is Russia. And condemn them in that aspect. But also understand the the material conditions that lead to this conflict and criticize NATO and America for their policy of "fighting until the last Ukrainian".
We want an end to the conflict. Not a war for wars sake. We acknowledge that the only benefit to more Ukraine's dying is to capitalist interest. To the war machine of the US.
There is no winning in a conflict between oligarchs. Only the working class of Ukraine suffer here.
All wars end in a treaty of some sort. And it should be up to the people of Ukreaine to decide that end. Something that the US has actively prevented. Encouraging Ukraine fight on with their milk toast support. So now it is being decided by a western war machine that is enjoying using them for a proxy war and abandoning them when it no longer serves their interest.
Support of Ukrain is not dependent on agreeing with the oligarchs of America. It is, quite frankly, contradictory to it.
No one with "power" in this conflict has the Ukraine people's interest at heart. It is why I called it a "conflict between oligarchs". And it's why I gave you a sarcastic reply to you're very ignorant comment.
I want an end to the war. An end to dying young men. And to do that you must be critical of both Oligarchs that continue this conflict for their own selfish interests. And of course, as someone that lives in the US and sees my leaders milk this conflict for their own self interest, of course I'm going to be critical to the country I live in.
My criticisms of Russia mean nothing. I have no say or influence in them. My activism is directed at the oligarchs and ruling class of my own nation. As I hope is being done by the leftist in Ukraine and Russia as well.
This is not support of Russia. This is solidarity between class. I will fight against the the oligarchs and their interest in my state and criticize their selfish profit driven incentives. As I know class conscious people are doing in Ukraine and Russia alike.
I didn't accuse you of 'support of Russia'. I accused you of apologia for genocide in Ukraine - and considering that your entire screed here is about how 'which side' in the conflict doesn't matter and 'no war but class war' (seemingly applicable when Ukrainians are being genocided, but not when Palestinians are being genocided), it would seem that, despite all of your bitching and bellyaching, I was absolutely correct in my reading. I guess you just don't like it concisely stated?
Holy shit I just checked his profile. Does he just spend all day on Lemmy posting?
I gotta say Pug Jesus, damn you have some trash needlessly condescending af takes.
That's exactly the problem. I hate the Democrats as much as the Republicans, but the DSA is so full of tankies I want nothing to do with them either. There is literally no party in this country for people like me.
PSL is full of tankies. DSA, at least in my experience, is filled with idealists who don't seem to connect 'results' with 'actions', but their heart is generally in the right place.
Their head, on the other hand, can lead them to bizarre choices like "Unendorsing AOC for being insufficiently pro-Palestine"
Her and Bernie have been insufficiently pro Palestine. To the degree of negligible support of the genocide. To the point of distancing themselves from Ilhan Omar. I think they rightfully know they made a mistake in an attempt to be strategic though. Which they are backtracking on now.
The reason these organizations (DSA/PSL) exist is to move politics to the left. If you criticize them for every attempt to do so. You are literally just contributing to the Ratchet Effect of US politics. That type of milk toast politics from "the left" in the democratic party did not prevent us from getting to where we are today.
The Democrats did everything to do exactly what you are advocating for and surprise surprise we are here in full out fascism today. Maybe try to listen to those a bit to the left of you. We literally warned that this centrist politics would end this way.
But somehow we're being blamed for it. Even though at every turn the Democrats prevented Palestinian voices and ran on "building the wall".
Ah yes, moving politics to the left will really be served by turning on one of the leftmost and most pro-Palestine politicians currently in Congress.
The leftist urge to sabotage the left for being insufficiently left seems to be timeless. Keep putting fascists in power, I guess. It's not like I can stop you. God knows I tried.
What am I advocating for, again?
Keep accusing everyone who doesn't think that electing fascists is left praxis of being neolibs. It's all you lot have at this point.