236
Sneaky
(lemmy.ml)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 20 Jul 2025
236 points (80.3% liked)
Memes
51834 readers
1678 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 6 years ago
MODERATORS
Fascism and anti-communism, as I said, are historically linked, beyond just Nazis hating communists. I again recommend reading Blackshirts and Reds. Wherever there has been a strong anti-communist movement, it has been tied to fascism in some way.
So, when you say "anti-communism", do you mean an organized front resisting and opposing communism, or just anyone who has an non-pro-communist opinion?
I imagine if I said something like "yeah capitalism has failed us, but that doesn't mean I want a planned economy" you might respond by saying I'm a wishy-washy centrist.
I might get pushback for this, but I don't think being ambivalent about communism is directly tied to fascism, mostly the usually violent anti-communism. I'd say the former can easily lead to the latter, as liberalism and fascism are the same ideology in different circumstances in my view, but that the former is generally a lack of good political education in my opinion. Most communists were not that way from birth.
I have to admit this may be a failing in my own political education. 😅 Why do you think liberalism and fascism are "the same ideology in different circumstances"? I think McCarthyism is a modern example of violent anti-communism, and I agree, that got really close to fascism. (Although I could argue that violent anti-anything would lead to fascism.)
I'm wondering if, like, Marxism-Leninism is something like "communism is what organized societies would naturally look like, and everything else is an authority asserting itself unfairly" sort of mindset.
To simplify, ideas are the results of existing material conditions. The ideas a worker has are informed by their experiences as a worker, and the same is true of capitalists. These sets of ideas, among those with similar positions, take on similar characters. Not the same, but similar enough. Workers tend to be more progressive, more unified, as an example.
Ideologies are the same way. Liberalism is the "nicer face" of capitalism. It's the part of capitalism that gets to pretend that the market helps all, that we can achieve the perfect system through carefully tweaking capitalism, etc. Fascism is the "meaner face" of capitalism. Fascism arises when capitalism is in dire conditions, and needs to violently protect itself, be it through colonizing their neighbors, murdering labor organizers, or using state planning in conjunction with the large capitalists to pivot to a more full economy, rescuing capitalism from its crisis by grinding the working class into dust.
Both are the ideological "superstructures" of capitalism. Neither is truly distinct from the other. In times of plenty, we call capitalist systems "liberal," but when those same systems turn to violent measures to retain the same conditions of production, we call it "fascist." It's the same system, different conditions.
Marxism-Leninism is neither. It's a tool for the working class, one that is informed by practice, and whose express purpose is to usher in a world that has resolved the contradictions of capitalism into the next stage in development, collectivized ownership and planning. Where humanity has become the master of production, and not slaves to the whims of profit. Marxism-Leninism is not the "natural state," it's a tool to get from this natural state to the next, more just natural state.
This is my perspective, which is certainly Marxist-Leninist, though other MLs may disagree with how I've described things and I don't dare claim that the specific analysis of fascism and liberalism as the same in different conditions is the definitive "ML stance." I'm also not taking credit for inventing it either, it's an old position as far as I know.
Oh ok. I understand better. Thank you for taking the time to explain it :)
I see MLs talk about "liberalism" and, correctly or not, I think of the French Revolution. It seems though that that term is instead of "neoliberalism," I think (?). I can see the narrative that "liberalism" and "fascism" are like masks that capitalist structures wear, like modes of operation. But it's also confusing because those two concepts don't descend directly from fascism.
And I think I'm picking up that ML is a the revolutionary part of expanding communism, and I guess that's why it's not just Marxism? Because Marx foresaw the fundamental changes that needed to happen, and Lenin instantiated it? I haven't read Marx yet, it's on my list of shame, I suppose 😅
Since we have an open dialogue, I'm also curious of your opinion about "tankie"ism. Specifically, why not-so-pro-communist people see MLs as tankies that defend or deny authoritarian crimes against humanity.
No problem! Liberalism was popularized by the French Revolution, but is generally the umbrella for pro-capitalist ideologies that put private ownership as an inherent "good." Neoliberalism is under that umbrella, but not distinct from it.
Marxism-Leninism is the synthesis of Marx's core framework of dialectical materialism, critique of capitalism, and scientific socialism, with Lenin's organizational advancements and advanced critique of imperialism that Marx did not live to see. It isn't so much a "recipe" as it is a tool for the working class to organize, overthrow capitalism, and work towards higher developments through socialism until communism is achieved. If you want an intro to Marxism-Leninism, I actually made an introductory reading list! Check it out if you have the time, it's aimed at beginners.
As for "tankie-ism," it's just the modern version of "pinko" or "commie." It's a pejorative for practicing Marxists. The "tankie" is a ready-made construct that affirms that all of the Red-Scare allegations against communists are true, while also being someone that supports said allegations. The reality is that the anti-communist propaganda throughout the decades is usually a distortion of quantity, quality, context, or all 3. There's nobody that actually agrees with all of the claims made by anti-communists are real, but also supports them. The reality is far more nuanced, but "tankie" is a convenient thought-terminating-cliché.
"Capitalism has failed us, instead of the only scientific ideology that is based in materialism, I am going to pick some vibes based bullshit I learnt on a Yogurt commercial"
Typical libshit
This inert attitude to politics is why our planet is fucked