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this post was submitted on 08 Aug 2025
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chapotraphouse
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i mean that you have language of a brain (thoughts/shapes/associations/memories) that float inside brain in some patterns, like waves on a pond. You can decide to express them, to explain/translate them to another person or not. I'm saying what i believe, opinions of course differ, some people think language guides ideas.
(as an exercise, what is decision in language form, explicitly? while i can buy that thoughts and objects-symbols might be closely related, verbs and actions are very far removed, feely-wise, to me)
you might find this article at least interesting (it's not strictly language of thought supportive) https://neuroanthropology.net/2010/07/21/life-without-language/
as aside if something is not expressible by language, it doesn't mean it's not real (nor is it real because i like to think it exists tbh), not something as private (and as of yet, due to mri restrictions, immeasurable) as thoughts. *(as an absurd example, is electromagnetic wave real for ancient egyptian? i don't think a single word will match or concept of light fits with ancient egyptian ideas)
fascinating article. i definitely think more along 'language-first' lines but the case raises interesting questions. i'm unsure if the idea of languagelessness or thinking about language in a more inclusive way would be the way forward. it's fascinating how Ildefonso was without language but also kind of enveloped in language-- like understanding/demonstrating 'macho' for instance. very cool.
i enjoy that you and the author can experience/perceive this non linguistic thought while having language, it must be a ymmv type of thing cause i really don't, not only is my brain colonized with words i'm also all-in on cultural relativism lol
if i were to express how i think, like low level school problems or imaginative exercises (imagining physical objects , fantasizing/remembering sensations, gaming logic) occurs completely silently, more like vague shape-like or action-reaction-type thingies (?best words i can describe them), i don't catch single words related to that. I do catch snippets of vocalized ideas if i start to focus more on something, and if i have to think from multiple sides or harder problem, i definitely start to symbolize/inner-vocalize ideas in some sense, cause if i don't - they just flee from memory without trace, so for me inner-language is like freezing something intangible inside the mind to have time to "look" at it. (also multiple languages play funny stuff with inner monologue, so that's why i'm sympathetic to idea i'm translating from some kind of inner thought language into real language, instead of real (first) language being primary)
*as a point of interest, do you speak 1 language or more? because i definitely don't run word to word translations when i speak (fluently, shittily known languages definitely stall out in inner monologue of "fuck, que la worda for la chaise" mini-panic), it's kinda self-obvious to me (not so much in written language, where i can sense reading/writing thoughts expressed explicitly in words)
this is super cool because i take the same thought to the opposite conclusion, some ideas just being more right in one language than another just indicates to me how language 'captures'--for lack of a better word(lmao)--everything.
but like even very simple arithmetic or instantaneous reactions to me feels like responding to a language, purpleworm is coming at me for such a loose definition of language but uhhhh i think many rulesets (games, cinematography, math) work like language and i'm just 'speaking' it, lol.
re: e: not really just 'academically fluent' in field specific writing
but that is very loose definition of language, if your fleeting thought (of say legality of move in chess or that putting this many holes in the chair is structurally unsound) requires 10 words to express it (this side of "fuck this" in chess language), i don't think it's real language first, it's your idea you can translate into english in so many words, but it's not like cluster of words arising in your brain (or is it?).
god isn't this fun? it's really wack since language =/= writing, so i'm uncomfortable designating 'chess language' as not language just cause you can't write it down, right? we're basically the comic of two people looking at the 6/9 on the ground lol