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[-] scarabic@lemmy.world 3 points 6 months ago

It’s the best system when combined with strong regulation and good social safety nets. I wish everybody would focus on those things falling down and needing to be fixed instead of pretending we’re going to throw the whole system out tomorrow.

[-] Evkob@lemmy.ca 2 points 6 months ago

It’s the best system when combined with strong regulation and good social safety nets.

Sure, it's just too bad it's also a system in which the most powerful are incentivized to cut regulations and destroy social safety nets.

This utopic version of capitalism sounds really nice, but it's fully incompatible with the actual reality of capitalism.

[-] Alaknar@sopuli.xyz 2 points 6 months ago

This utopic version of capitalism sounds really nice, but it’s fully incompatible with the actual reality of capitalism.

All it takes for capitalism to work flawlessly is... checks notes... a fundamental change in human nature, where we no longer feel greed.

EZPZ. Best system ever designed!

(don't tell anyone that this would equally make communism work)

[-] FlyingCircus@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

If a socio-economic system incentives greed to the point where a person who is not greedy is literally unable to succeed, can you really say that greed is human nature?

[-] NateNate60@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

This perverse incentive, however, is at least limited to a very small group of people, whose influence, with the correct exercise of state power, can be contained.

In a capitalist economy or capitalist-like economy, everyone's individual self-interest aligns with the collective self-interest a good percentage of the time, so relatively little state intervention is needed to keep it working well. The problem with alternative economic systems is that it is in almost nobody's interest to work for the common good, either because of a collective action problem (in communist or communist-like systems) or other reasons. That is why governments in non-capitalist countries are comparatively more heavy-handed with their application of state power. They have to do so in order to maintain their system when it is in nobody's interest to do so on their own.

Without addressing the more obscure systems which I do not know enough about to give an informed take, the difference between capitalism and communism is that the former works by assuming the worst of everyone and the latter works by assuming the best of everyone. And humans acting in large groups tend to act shitty and selfishly.

[-] SkyeStarfall@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 6 months ago

almost nobody's interest to work

Except that doesn't really add up in reality. People do want to contribute. People do want to feel useful.

A lot of today's most important functions are done by people who do it out of a love for the field, not because they're paid well to do it. I'm thinking teachers. I'm thinking academics. I'm thinking people in certain medical fields such as nursing. A lot of these jobs frankly suck compared to other ones, and the list isn't limited to these.

Hell, I work at the place I do because I like the idea of working with what I do than just going private, even though I'm literally losing out on lots of money doing so.

And then you got stuff like the wealth of Free And Open Source software that people develop because they like to contribute. You got wikipedia. You got so many things people do just because they want to contribute, the list is almost endless.

Humans are wired to be pro-social. We could absolutely make it work. If anything, capitalism stands in the way of this goodness!

[-] jimjam5@lemmy.world 0 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

when combined with strong regulation and good social safety nets

🤣 I’m not disagreeing with the sentiment but to think we’ll see those anytime soon is a bit of a sad joke. I think too many people in power have made too much money for anything but a sundering to change their minds and allow themselves to be regulated and work for the good of all, instead of themselves.

In a slightly different vein of thought, I think there is truth to the sentiment that fascists don’t cede power willingly. I get that we should focus on things we can change that aren’t unimportant, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a fascist government being voted out.

[-] scarabic@lemmy.world 0 points 6 months ago

The only thing making stronger regulation impossible is self-defeating apathy.

The hard truth is that none of us here in this thread are out in the streets rioting because we are fed, housed, and have a job to get to. We talk about capitalism as if it only benefits Elon Musk but we’re all riding the same bus. He just has a better seat.

[-] jimjam5@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I have been to local protests (and the use of the word rioting suggests you might be of a different persuasion than me, and that’s ok). And for the record, I didn’t disagree with you. I grew up under capitalism and knew a brief period where capitalism wasn’t completely fucking over the lower and middle classes but that was before the US came out of the fascist closet.

[-] theparadox@lemmy.world 0 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

It’s the best system when combined with strong regulation and good social safety nets.

Both regulation and social safety nets run counter to the concept of a free market and a free market is central to the definition of Capitalism.

That's like saying "The best form of travel is unrestrained forward acceleration" with the caveat that it must be combined with the ability to break and steer.

[-] droans@midwest.social 2 points 6 months ago

Adam Smith, the father of capitalism, was pretty clear that a free market still needs protection.

A man must always live by his work, and his wages must at least be sufficient to maintain him. They must even upon most occasions be somewhat more; otherwise it would be impossible for him to bring up a family, and the race of such workmen could not last beyond the first generation...

Every species of animals naturally multiplies in proportion to the means of their subsistence, and no species can ever multiply beyond it. But in civilised society it is only among the inferior ranks of people that the scantiness of subsistence can set limits to the further multiplication of the human species; and it can do so in no other way than by destroying a great part of the children which their fruitful marriages produce.

The liberal reward of labour, by enabling them to provide better for their children, and consequently to bring up a greater number, naturally tends to widen and extend those limits. It deserves to be remarked, too, that it necessarily does this as nearly as possible in the proportion which the demand for labour requires. If this demand is continually increasing, the reward of labour must necessarily encourage in such a manner the marriage and multiplication of labourers, as may enable them to supply that continually increasing demand by a continually increasing population.

[-] ___qwertz___@feddit.org 1 points 6 months ago

Modern neoliberal capitalism is mostly based on Friedrich Hayek who thought that any regulation to the market is harmful. Smith is long overdue.

During a party meeting, Margareth Thetcher literally pulled out a book of Hayek out of her handbag, slammed it on the table and declared "This is what we believe".

[-] theparadox@lemmy.world -1 points 6 months ago

Adam Smith, the father of capitalism

Adam Smith is long dead and so is whatever he defined his ideal capitalism. The rich, the powerful, the most diehard proponents of capitalism... They are all pushing for less regulation, fewer social safety nets, lower taxes, lower labor cost. They absolutely don't give a flying fuck about their workers 'ability to provide for their families.

That's the end result of profit and greed being the driving force of the economy and markets. We're just back to a new flavor of feudalism.

[-] scarabic@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

No, it’s like saying that the best form of transportation is some form of forward locomotive force kept in check by brakes and steering. Like, you know actual cars.

Basically you’re looking at a Toyota Corolla and saying “What? Some of its parts move it forward, and some of its parts stop it from moving? That’s a total contradiction! It’s central to the definition of a car that it move forward!”

Yes regulation and social safety nets run counter, that’s the point.

There’s no one concept which makes for a good system in a totally undiluted form. Pure centralized economy: disaster. Pure capitalism, disaster.

Capitalism tempered by regulation and socialism: a balance of economic dynamism and humanist restraint.

The core of your argument seems to be that the only form of capitalism is unrestrained capitalism and we just don’t agree on those semantics. I believe a free market system can be governed and taxed to support social welfare. You believe that capitalism can only be unrestrained. Well, my version of reality is everywhere we look: both Europe and the US are examples of free market economies with some safety net and regulation attached. Europe is stronger on the latter two but the US is hardly at zero.

[-] outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 6 months ago

Capitalism is inherently about vice exploutation and getting around rukes, though. You can't say 'capitalism but virtuous'; that's nonsense. 'Capitalism but restrained' translates to reality as 'caputalism but only fir the first five minutes before breaking everything'.

[-] RedGreenBlue@lemmy.zip 1 points 6 months ago

Look at the scandinavian countries. Arguably the best example of how to do capitalism, regulation and socialism. Seems to work out for their citizens.

[-] some_kind_of_guy@lemmy.world 0 points 6 months ago

So the best way to do capitalism is to have less of it than other nations

[-] balderdash9@lemmy.zip -1 points 6 months ago

The strongest safety net would be to do away with capitalism and move to socialism. Which is why the U.S. diplomatically isolates, trade embargos, or just fucking assassinates countries/leaders that try to start socialism.

[-] scarabic@lemmy.world 0 points 6 months ago

Do you want to show me these very strong pure socialist societies? Are you really going to claim that pure socialism is a perfect system but it’s never been allowed to work, even one time, and has been sabotaged 100% of the time? I am aware of such sabotage, but I refuse to believe that the sabotage has been flawless and never allowed this perfect system to succeed, even once. Pure socialism has more than just capitalist sabotage against it.

[-] balderdash9@lemmy.zip 1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

It's odd to acknowledge the long history of sabotage against socialist countries--by the most powerful country in the history of the Earth--while also implying that socialist countries would fail on their own. If they would fail, then there's no reason to sabotage them. But if you'd like examples, look at the achievements in Cuba, Asia, and, yes, the U.S.S.R.

From Micheal Parentti's Blackshirts and Reds:

E.g 1: "Today, Cuba is a different place. For all its mistakes and abuses, the Cuban Revolution brought sanitation, schools, health clinics, jobs, housing, and human services to a level not found throughout most of the Third World and in many parts of the First World. Infant mortality in Cuba has dropped from 60 per 1000 in 1960 to 9.7 per 1000 by 1991, while life expectancy rose from 55 to 75 in that same period. Smallpox, malaria, tuberculosis, typhoid, polio, and numerous other diseases have been wiped out by improved living standards and public health programs. Cuba has enjoyed a level of literacy higher than in the United States and a life expectancy that compares well with advanced industrial nations."

E.g 2: "Consider Kerala, a state in India where the actions of popular organizations and mass movements have won important victories over the last forty years against politico-economic oppression, generating a level of social development considerably better than that found in most of the Third World, and accomplished without outside investment. Kerala has mass literacy, a lower birth rate and lower death rate than the rest of India, better public health services, fewer child workers, higher nutritional levels (thanks to a publicly subsidized food rationing system), more enlightened legal support and educational programs for women, and some social security protections for working people and for the destitute and physically handicapped. In addition, the people of Kerala radically altered a complex and exploitative system of agrarian relations and won important victories against the more horrid forms of caste oppression. Though Kerala has no special sources of wealth, it has had decades of communist organizing and political struggle that reached and moved large numbers of people and breathed life into the states democracy."

E.g 3: "During the years of Stalins reign, the Soviet nation made dramatic gains in literacy, industrial wages, health care, and women's rights. These accomplishments usually go unmentioned when the Stalinist era is discussed. To say that "socialism doesn't work" is to overlook the fact that it did. In Eastern Europe, Russia, China, Mongolia, North Korea, and Cuba, revolutionary communism created a life for the mass of people that was far better than the wretched existence they had endured under feudal lords, military bosses, foreign colonizers, and Western capitalists. The end result was a dramatic improvement in living conditions for hundreds of millions of people on a scale never before or since witnessed in history."

In each of these cases, we see socialist policies lead to desirable outcomes despite serious economic barriers. Many capitalist developing nations cannot say the same. We conveniently seem to forget the exploited, overworked, and underpaid millions who suffer and die under the yoke of capitalism. Land, labor, and resources are stripped away and systematically funneled to the world's richest; and somehow we repeat the propaganda that this is the best system we can hope to achieve.

[-] outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com -1 points 6 months ago

Uh, why? What's actually good about it? Like, what dies it do well?

[-] some_kind_of_guy@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

It's an incredible system for moving all the money to the top 0.001%

[-] outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 6 months ago

Okay, yes, point; very good at that. Do we want that? Is it wkrtg the cost if we do?

this post was submitted on 04 Aug 2025
94 points (96.1% liked)

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